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Methods over (2M) - X - (XX)

#1 User is offline   mohitz 

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Posted 2010-November-21, 10:28

where XX is penalty. What do you play here? What is pass and 2N?
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-November-21, 10:33

Exactly as over (2M)-X-(Pass).

I don't want the meaning of my calls to depend on whether redouble shows/denies a fit, whether opponents psyched redouble, whether opponents have some weird redouble agreement (like rosencrantz or mccabe) that they're not telling me. In particular I'd like to still be able to defend 2MXX if that's the best spot.
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#3 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-November-21, 10:48

same as above
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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2010-November-21, 12:29

Pass is indeed to play but 2NT is scrambling if redouble is business.

I have a hard time believing that lebensohl is as useful as scrambling in this situation, especially if the major is spades.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#5 User is offline   mfa1010 

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Posted 2010-November-21, 15:51

Agree with han, scramble after a business redouble.
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#6 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2010-November-21, 17:02

View Posthan, on 2010-November-21, 12:29, said:

Pass is indeed to play but 2NT is scrambling if redouble is business.

I have a hard time believing that lebensohl is as useful as scrambling in this situation, especially if the major is spades.


To me, 2NT % 100 scramble after 2♠ and rdbl, if pass is to play. If pass is not to play then pass can be used as scramble.
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#7 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2010-November-22, 11:10

Mohitz, are you really located in India? I should think about a dozen pairs faced exactly this auction in England's premier inter-county competition (Tollemache) yesterday.

FWIW, I agree with the consensus here that pass is to play and 2N is scrambling rather than Lebensohl. I had better check that my partner sees it the same way, though....
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#8 User is offline   mohitz 

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Posted 2010-November-22, 11:26

View PostWellSpyder, on 2010-November-22, 11:10, said:

Mohitz, are you really located in India? I should think about a dozen pairs faced exactly this auction in England's premier inter-county competition (Tollemache) yesterday.


yea, it was just a coincidence :)
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#9 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-November-22, 12:26

agree with han
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#10 User is offline   Furlan 

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Posted 2010-November-22, 19:37

Intuitively I would say Pass = scramble (no clear direction) and 2NT = Lebensohl, knowing what to do next (e.g. weak with long minor). Seems to make us able to profit from the extra space they gave us.
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#11 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2010-November-22, 19:40

Using XX as penalty, what hands does weak2 double on?
SA + they hit my side feature? Less since XX asks penalty?
I' m thinking eg.
2S <X> XX <3C>, X = SA + C-honor, P = not that??
even later business doubles must show something.

Sorry to hijack this discussion and turn it
back onto the opening side,
but this dhould be agreed in A @ E partnerships.
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#12 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-November-22, 23:48

Pass is penalty. I don't have strong feelings about 2N being scrambling or Lebensohl tbh. Either could work, just like playing 2N in response to a TOx (without the xx) can reasonably be played as scrambling.

I can't ever remember a responder making a natural xx in this auction. Doesn't that seem like a bad agreement?
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#13 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2010-November-23, 04:22

View Postdake50, on 2010-November-22, 19:40, said:

Using XX as penalty, what hands does weak2 double on?
SA + they hit my side feature? Less since XX asks penalty?
I' m thinking eg.
2S <X> XX <3C>, X = SA + C-honor, P = not that??
even later business doubles must show something.

Good question! The weak 2 hand in the Tolle mentioned earlier was ♠KQJ1093 ♥J3 ♦10 ♣10985. Should this hand be doubling 3♣ at love all (imps)? (At my table, the opening bid was 3♠ and the auction proceeded as suggested but a level higher. I certainly think this hand can afford to double 4♣ (though I failed to do so at the time).
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#14 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2010-November-23, 04:50

View Postmohitz, on 2010-November-21, 10:28, said:

where XX is penalty. What do you play here? What is pass and 2N?
Agree with majority: _P = penalty suggestion. 2N = scramble. Cue = somebody's having fun. Others = natural.
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