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A hand I misplayed

#1 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 16:32


West leads ♣6, playing 4th best leads. East plays ♣3.

Edit (18th November): 1♣ includes any weak notrump that doesn't have a five-card major. That is, it includes all 3352/3253/2353 shapes. They might also open 1♣ with a 2452 shape, to avoid a rebid problem.
Their leads are 4th, and second from xxx.
Their carding is standard count and upside-down attitude.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2010-November-18, 09:17

... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#2 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 16:59

Cash second club, ♠K and A, run clubs discarding hearts.

I could also pitch a diamond but then if West ruffs and plays ♦A I have to discard a heart instead of ruffing.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 17:41

View Postnigel_k, on 2010-November-17, 16:59, said:

Cash second club, ♠K and A, run clubs discarding hearts.

I could also pitch a diamond but then if West ruffs and plays ♦A I have to discard a heart instead of ruffing.


what if West ruffs, cashs the diamond and exits a low heart (or the 10 from AQ10x)?

My line: unblock the club, lead a diamond.

Aseume LHO wins...what can he return? Say a diamond.... we win, throwing a heart and cash the top club....throwing another heart. West can't refuse to ruff, since we then play the top spades and yet another club, throwing a 3rd heart....we lose a spade, a diamond and one heart.

If he ruffs the club A...what does he return? He has no reply....if he leads a low heart at that stage, we win and pull trump ending in dummy.

If he ducks the diamond, we again play a top club..again, he can't ruff, so now we again cash two trump and then another club...we lose 2 hearts and one spade.

Note that these lines requires that he be 3=4=4=2...if he is 4=4=3=2, I don't think we can ever make.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#4 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 18:38

Maybe you're right.

I was working on the assumption that West has J86 in clubs. Then he can play a third club when in with the ♦A. I can overruff and play two top trumps but then if I cash the ♦K West can ruff the next club and exit with a diamond, and if I don't cash it, he can ruff and exit with a low heart.

We need to know more about their opening style and carding.
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#5 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 03:07

View Postnigel_k, on 2010-November-17, 18:38, said:

We need to know more about their opening style and carding.

Sorry. 1♣ includes any weak notrump that doesn't have a five-card major. That is, it includes all 3352 shapes, and I expect that some 2452 shapes would be included too, because 1♦-1♠;1NT would not show a weak notrump.

Their carding is standard count and upside-down attitude, so you can assume that the clubs are xx-Jxx.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#6 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 05:12

I think mike is right, if we can reach dmmy with ♦K we can force LHO to ruff the club and now spades will likelly be 2-2 with dummy high. ♣KQ followed by diamonds looks best to me.
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#7 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 09:12

View Postgnasher, on 2010-November-18, 03:07, said:

Their carding is standard count and upside-down attitude, so you can assume that the clubs are xx-Jxx.

On reflection, you can't assume that. This was in England, where people play MUD from three small. Hence the clubs could also be 965-J3. All this misinformation is getting a bit confusing, so I'll edit the original post.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 09:26

View Postgnasher, on 2010-November-18, 09:12, said:

On reflection, you can't assume that. This was in England, where people play MUD from three small. Hence the clubs could also be 965-J3. All this misinformation is getting a bit confusing, so I'll edit the original post.

I had assumed that the alert of 1♣ merely announced it could be on 2, and the (assumed to be standard because not alerted) carding suggested 2=3: not that LHO might have 5 diamonds or that LHO might lead MUD! I do think that posting play problems without disclosing the information that real-life declarers would have is wrong.

Now that I have more info, however, I certainly start the same way: unblock the clubs...now I will know what they hold in that suit.

If LHO started with 2, I will proceed as above. If rho has 2, then I draw 2 rounds of trump ending in dummy, as per nigel, and cash (I hope) 2 clubs (west ruffing the 2nd) pitching 2 hearts....LHO is endplayed..
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 09:55

View Postmikeh, on 2010-November-18, 09:26, said:

I had assumed that the alert of 1♣ merely announced it could be on 2, and the (assumed to be standard because not alerted) carding suggested 2=3: not that LHO might have 5 diamonds or that LHO might lead MUD! I do think that posting play problems without disclosing the information that real-life declarers would have is wrong.

I provided an explanation of 1♣ as well as an alert. If you click on the highlighted 1♣ bid, you will see the text "clubs or any 11-14 balanced" . That explanation was present in my original post.

If you assumed standard carding, that was fine. The opponents would give standard count with Jxx, and would, I expect, play the low one from Jx.

As for the MUD leads, you're quite right, but I have the excuse that I've only just realised that this was a possibility. They had xx-Jxx, so you can ignore the MUD possibility if you like.

Anyway, I think that there's a line which is correct both with the information I gave you originally, and with the information you now have. And it's not the one you've suggested.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#10 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 10:15

View Postgnasher, on 2010-November-18, 09:55, said:

I provided an explanation of 1♣ as well as an alert. If you click on the highlighted 1♣ bid, you will see the text "clubs or any 11-14 balanced" . That explanation was present in my original post.

If you assumed standard carding, that was fine. The opponents would give standard count with Jxx, and would, I expect, play the low one from Jx.

As for the MUD leads, you're quite right, but I have the excuse that I've only just realised that this was a possibility. They had xx-Jxx, so you can ignore the MUD possibility if you like.

Anyway, I think that there's a line which is correct both with the information I gave you originally, and with the information you now have. And it's not the one you've suggested.


My apologies....somehow I missed that...I thought I had clicked on the 1♣ and saw nothing....I see that I must have screwed up...it works when I'm a little more careful...mea culpa.

I await the correct line with interest...I admit I don't yet see a line that works more frequently than the one I suggested
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#11 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 18:50

I think I owe Mike an apology.

This is what I thought was the right line: ♣KQ, ♠KA, ♣A throwing a diamond. If LHO ruffs that and exits with DA, we ruff and lead ♥K to endplay him. If at any point he tries to exit with a low heart, we play dummy's 9.

I thought this worked all of the time that LHO is 3=2 in the blacks (which is when Mike's line works), some of the time that he's 2=2 or 2=3, and a bit of the time that he's 4=2.

However, my line goes down when LHO has ♠Qxx and ♥AQ10x - when I try to exit with ♥K, he can duck. So, if we're confident that LHO has 3+ spades and 2 clubs, we should play Mike's line (even though mine is prettier).
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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