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When the Opps Interfere Takeout or Penalty?

#1 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 13:04

Playing in a local round robin, where we play two 12-board matches each scored at VPs, I picked up this hand:

1NT - 15-17
2D - Diamonds and a major
2H - Pass or Correct


As is often the case in these partly social/partly serious competitions, my partner and I were a very occasional partnership, and we did not have a firm agreement on whether my double of 2 was for takeout or for penalty. After I doubled, she thought about the situation for a good 60 seconds before passing out 2x, which we beat 800 with no game our way.

Query - how do you play the double of 2 in an auction like this one?
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#2 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 13:14

Takeout.

It's not like we had another chance to show a takeout double of spades, so I don't see why the usual penalty/takeout arguments about 1n-(2x)-x wouldn't apply.
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#3 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 13:15

I would have Doubled 2 for Takeout, this Double should be takeout as well, IMO.
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#4 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 15:26

Suppose that your immediate doubles of natural overcalls are for penalty. What then?
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#5 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 15:35

View Postmtvesuvius, on 2010-November-17, 13:15, said:

I would have Doubled 2 for Takeout, this Double should be takeout as well, IMO.

that seems inconsistent: if you double 2 for takeout, are you not inviting partner to bid 2? which suggests you have spades, at least to some degree....if the double of 2 is takeout, subsequent doubles should be penalty.

BTW, on the actual auction, opener's hand pretty much answers the question anyway. RHO wouldn't have pulled 2 to 2 unless he/she preferred spades to diamonds and holding KQxx, the odds of responder having a penalty double of 2 must be very low.
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#6 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 15:50

View Postmikeh, on 2010-November-17, 15:35, said:

that seems inconsistent: if you double 2 for takeout, are you not inviting partner to bid 2? which suggests you have spades, at least to some degree....if the double of 2 is takeout, subsequent doubles should be penalty.

Good point, perhaps X should be more co-operative (or Value-Showing)... Or perhaps pure penalty.
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#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 17:37

This is to some extent a generational thing. If you look at back at older rules for doubles such as from Culbertson then the double is penalty. Older players still tend to expect a double opposite a 1NT opening to be penalty. But most current players and practically all of the juniors play these doubles as take-out. Have a set of meta-rules and stick to them. This is far more valuable for the average pair than having every situation optimally mapped out.
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#8 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 18:28

View PostArtK78, on 2010-November-17, 13:04, said:

Playing in a local round robin, where we play two 12-board matches each scored at VPs, I picked up this hand:

1NT - 15-17
2D - Diamonds and a major
2H - Pass or Correct


As is often the case in these partly social/partly serious competitions, my partner and I were a very occasional partnership, and we did not have a firm agreement on whether my double of 2 was for takeout or for penalty. After I doubled, she thought about the situation for a good 60 seconds before passing out 2x, which we beat 800 with no game our way.

Query - how do you play the double of 2 in an auction like this one?



penalty, I would play 2nt as t/o over 2s.

x of 2d would be penalty also. 2h and 2s nat....2nt as t/o.
---option 2 is too play x of 2d as neg.
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