[aguahombre]

p--1h
1s-2h
2N-3C

---

Edit: Sorry, couldn't fix the hand (or perhaps change the forum); South dealt, Vul at IMPs

In the Canadian Swiss final match(reported in the ACBL Bulletin), the auction ended there. This can't really be an ATB because it involves a disagreement about the forcing nature of 3♣.

Assuming the calls up through opener's 2♥ rebid are in accord with this world class pair's agreements:

1--Do you agree with 2NT, or should responder just raise the known 6-2 heart fit? No gadgets available.
2--In your opinion, should 3♣ be forcing (North's opinion) or NF (South's opinion)?
3--Should South have bid 3H anyway after 3C?

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2010-September-14, 11:26

[jonottawa]

Seems to me S failed to adequately appreciate the value of a red game. You'll often get a ♦ lead here and game has play opposite as little as AQJxxx and out. I'd have bid 3N over 2H (since partner likely? would have preempted with a less-than-full opener.) Partner should be able to infer doubleton support for that call.

Curious what S thought N should bid over 2N.

[ONEferBRID]

1) yes, 2NT

2) 3C = forcing... I think ( "new suit at the 3-level by an unpassed partner" -- there are exceptions, but I'm not sure this is one of them, although suit bidding 6 6 4 is weaker than bidding 6 4 6 ).

3) bid 3H anyway ( perhaps 4H ) . You have a double fit and a max pass for no opening bid.

[CSGibson]

I've always understood that the bidding sequence ♥♥♣ is weaker than ♥♣♥. As a result, I think that 3C should be non-forcing opposite an invitational 2N, as hands that have the values to accept game tries would have chosen a different sequence of bids. I also think the N hand should bid ♥♣♥ with their actual hand - The ♣AJT is just enough to push it to that intermediate sequence in my opinion.

The fact that the bidding was systematic through 2H suggests to me that N-S have different agreements than myself, however, so my "standard" suggestion might not apply.

[jukmoi]

CSGibson, on Sep 15 2010, 01:55 AM, said:

I've always understood that the bidding sequence ♥♥♣ is weaker than ♥♣♥. As a result, I think that 3C should be non-forcing opposite an invitational 2N, as hands that have the values to accept game tries would have chosen a different sequence of bids. I also think the N hand should bid ♥♣♥ with their actual hand - The ♣AJT is just enough to push it to that intermediate sequence in my opinion.

Agree with this. Something like Pass-1♥;-1♠-2♣; 3♣-3♥; 4♥-pass. Bidding 4♥ shouldnt be too difficult.

[Fluffy]

3♣ is non forcing for me, I bid 2♣ instead of 2♥ with the hands that are worth another try.

South has an auto 4♥ bid with the double fit anyway.

[mcphee]

1: I agree with 2NT
2: 3C would be NF for me
3: I prefer the S hand to bid 3H but can live with passing.

It is my habit to bid 2C after 1S when I have a decent 6-4. Treating 3C is NF makes more sense to me as what would you do in a similar situation with jx Aj10xxx x and AJ10x is short a hand unsuitable for NT. Bearing in mind that the S hand may in fact be keeping the auction alive in hope of producing the vul game, after all they may hold a fitting H honor making a try for a 9 trick game.

Consider if the auction had developed with C being bid at the second turn and the S hand tries 2N. When N now continues on to 3H it is a lot easier to visualize a possible game.

[benlessard]

NF, but south has a clear 4H

[jdonn]

jonottawa, on Sep 14 2010, 12:56 PM, said:

Curious what S thought N should bid over 2N.

Maybe he thought north should bid something else over 1♠ instead.

[junyi_zhu]

aguahombre, on Sep 14 2010, 05:05 PM, said:

p--1h
1s-2h
2N-3C

---

Edit: Sorry, couldn't fix the hand (or perhaps change the forum); South dealt, Vul at IMPs

In the Canadian Swiss final match(reported in the ACBL Bulletin), the auction ended there. This can't really be an ATB because it involves a disagreement about the forcing nature of 3♣.

Assuming the calls up through opener's 2♥ rebid are in accord with this world class pair's agreements:

1--Do you agree with 2NT, or should responder just raise the known 6-2 heart fit? No gadgets available.
2--In your opinion, should 3♣ be forcing (North's opinion) or NF (South's opinion)?
3--Should South have bid 3H anyway after 3C?

I'd just bid 3H. spot cards in spade is rather weak, I don't see any reason to bypass the H support.

After 2NT, I just play 3C as forcing. I don't buy the theory that 2H then 3C should show a weak hand. x KQJxxx AK Jxxx, it doesn't make a lot of sense to bid 2C instead of 2H IMO, unless you play 2C as one round forcing.

This is a typical problem for those focus too much on partials and 3NTs.

[CSGibson]

junyi_zhu, on Sep 16 2010, 05:26 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Sep 14 2010, 05:05 PM, said:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠   ♥ AK8742 ♦ J65 ♣ AJT6 ♠ Q963 ♥ T3 ♦ AQT ♣ K843

p--1h 1s-2h 2N-3C

Edit: Sorry, couldn't fix the hand (or perhaps change the forum); South dealt, Vul at IMPs

In the Canadian Swiss final match(reported in the ACBL Bulletin), the auction ended there.  This can't really be an ATB because it involves a disagreement about the forcing nature of 3♣. 

Assuming the calls up through opener's 2♥ rebid are in accord with this world class pair's agreements:

1--Do you agree with 2NT, or should responder just raise the known 6-2 heart fit? No gadgets available.
2--In your opinion, should 3♣ be forcing (North's opinion) or NF (South's opinion)?
3--Should South have bid 3H anyway after 3C?

I'd just bid 3H. spot cards in spade is rather weak, I don't see any reason to bypass the H support.

After 2NT, I just play 3C as forcing. I don't buy the theory that 2H then 3C should show a weak hand. x KQJxxx AK Jxxx, it doesn't make a lot of sense to bid 2C instead of 2H IMO, unless you play 2C as one round forcing.

This is a typical problem for those focus too much on partials and 3NTs.

sure, but why would you introduce the club suit now? Wouldn't you just bid 3N with that hand? You're not interested in a club slam, or a club game, just bid 3N.

[keylime]

I'd treat 3♣ as mildly invitational to some game here. North already knows South's hand, and at a red game, South should take the push - 3NT.

[whereagles]

bids like 3♣ never came up with me.. still, I'd say forcing, showing either spade or diamond trouble. This is because you should not be raising the level of play if you have no guarantee of a fit (resp can be 4153).