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ambiguous double after Michaels

#1 User is offline   quiddity 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 14:08

Scoring: MP

P P 1♣ 2♣
2♦ X P ?


With no previous discussion, how would you treat this double? Do you bid or pass? What is your preferred treatment for the double?
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#2 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 14:15

Penalty double?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#3 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 14:18

Matter of agreements.
Standard is penalty.
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#4 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 15:13

quiddity, on Aug 12 2010, 03:08 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

P P 1♣ 2♣
2♦ X P ?


With no previous discussion, how would you treat this double?  Do you bid or pass?  What is your preferred treatment for the double?

Hopefully dummy will hit with
Scoring: MP

P P 1♣ 2♣
2♦ X P ?


:P
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#5 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 16:35

Without discussion, I would treat is penalty. Michaels bidder showed which suits he has, so there is no "takeout" even existing.
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#6 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 16:45

What is all this talk about the possibility of a different agreement? Has anyone ever played when they open 1 suit and you show length in 2 other suits that doubling the 4th suit is anything but penalty?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#7 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 16:56

jdonn, on Aug 13 2010, 12:45 AM, said:

What is all this talk about the possibility of a different agreement? Has anyone ever played when they open 1 suit and you show length in 2 other suits that doubling the 4th suit is anything but penalty?

In the old days where Michaels could be 5-4 either way I played X as competitive, expecting partner to bid his longer suit.
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#8 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 16:59

jdonn, on Aug 12 2010, 05:45 PM, said:

What is all this talk about the possibility of a different agreement? Has anyone ever played when they open 1 suit and you show length in 2 other suits that doubling the 4th suit is anything but penalty?

I was rephrasing the OP question. With discussion, my agreement would be the same.
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#9 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 17:23

MFA, on Aug 12 2010, 05:56 PM, said:

jdonn, on Aug 13 2010, 12:45 AM, said:

What is all this talk about the possibility of a different agreement? Has anyone ever played when they open 1 suit and you show length in 2 other suits that doubling the 4th suit is anything but penalty?

In the old days where Michaels could be 5-4 either way I played X as competitive, expecting partner to bid his longer suit.

Touche, but obviously that doesn't apply these days...
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#10 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 17:34

When RHO opens a suit, we show two more suits, and partner doubles the 4th, the double is penalty.
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#11 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2010-August-13, 02:39

What if 2D is forcing?
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#12 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2010-August-13, 03:43

FrancesHinden, on Aug 13 2010, 09:39 AM, said:

What if 2D is forcing?

Yeah good point. Here the 2♦ bidder is a passed hand, though.

But 2♦ shouldn't be forcing when two cuebids are available.
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#13 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-August-13, 09:12

FrancesHinden, on Aug 13 2010, 03:39 AM, said:

What if 2D is forcing?

It's an impossible situation even if responder weren't a passed hand.

"Is 2♦ forcing"
"Yes"
"Ok thanks I pass"
hmmmmm
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#14 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2010-August-13, 09:28

As a split-range person, my expectation for a lot of matchpoints in 2DX is high. Top of the low range even for this vulnerablility with bullets.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#15 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2010-August-13, 12:03

jdonn, on Aug 14 2010, 03:12 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Aug 13 2010, 03:39 AM, said:

What if 2D is forcing?

It's an impossible situation even if responder weren't a passed hand.

"Is 2♦ forcing"
"Yes"
"Ok thanks I pass"
hmmmmm

Wouldn't a non-forcing 2♦ need an alert in most jurisdictions.

And if not would a forcing 2♦ need an alert.

It seems to me that one or the other should be alerted.
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#16 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2010-August-13, 22:00

I think by the time the double occurred everyone at the table knew 2D was not forcing ---but of course I never think about an opening Psyche.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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