[gurgistan]

I used to play SA and my 3N opener is 25-27hcp with a balanced hand.

I now play 2/1.

How common is Gambling 3N amongst 2/1 players and should I learn it?

Moreover, are people playing Weak or Strong Gambling 3N?

Any and all help appreciated.

[gwnn]

2/1 is not a well defined system. Many people play gambling 3NT and many people don't play it. Most people probably do play it.

No idea what 'strong' or 'weak' gambling means.

7 cards to AKQ or better, no outside ace or king.

It is not really difficult to learn it. It is not a complicated poem or a foreign language. you just open 3NT and partner will usually place the final contract.

4D is shortness ask and

4M shortness here
4N shortness in the other minor
5m this is my minor, I am 7222.

but if you know this shortness ask, be aware that very many people don't know it.

[awm]

Commonly played? Yes. The usual version is "seven solid and no outside tricks" rather than the "strong" variants.

Common to come up? No. It's quite unusual.

Good convention? I don't think so. It wrong-sides the contract, and you can usually reach 3NT when it's right by opening 1m on these hands. The best meaning for 3NT that I've seen is "reverse namyats" -- showing a good 4M bid. But this is not allowed by ACBL except on the super-chart, so if you're in the US you're stuck playing something else.

[Phil]

awm, on Jul 31 2010, 01:27 PM, said:

I've seen is "reverse namyats" -- showing a good 4M bid. But this is not allowed by ACBL except on the super-chart, so if you're in the US you're stuck playing something else.

This keep rearing its head.

I was kibbing a world-class (new) partnership on BBO a few weeks ago and they were discussing a 3N opening.

"Reverse Namyats?"

"Sure".

I can't remember who it was, but the fact that the term was being tossed around as casually as something like "Baze" or "Woolsey" led me to believe it is developing a following.

[gurgistan]

awm, on Jul 31 2010, 01:27 PM, said:

Good convention? I don't think so. It wrong-sides the contract, and you can usually reach 3NT when it's right by opening 1m on these hands.

This has convinced me that I should just leave Gambling 3N alone.

[peachy]

25-27 for 3NT opening does not disturb 2/1 system at all. If you like it, continue using it. If you like Gambling better, then switch. But before switching, agree on 1) what constitutes a solid suit 2) what opener can have on the side 3) don't use it in 4th seat 4) what are the followups when partner wants to remove from 3NT for some reason.

[gurgistan]

Does anyone know which are more statistically likely: Gambling 3N type hands or the SA 25-27hcp balanced type hands?

[Fluffy]

gurgistan, on Aug 4 2010, 05:25 PM, said:

Does anyone know which are more statistically likely: Gambling 3N type hands or the SA 25-27hcp balanced type hands?

the gambling.

But opening either hand with 3NT is a long term loser IMO

[foo]

The folks in Europe, specifically England, have a better Gambling 3N opening than those in the US.

ACOL style Gambling 3N =promises= stoppers at least 2/3 of the side suits and a decent long source of trick with 7.5-8.5 tricks in hand.

some examples of minimums
a= Kx_Ax_AKQxxx_xxx
b= Ax_Kx_xx_KQJxxxx
c= Kx_KQJxxxx_Kx_Kx
etc

IMHO, this is both more frequent and safer than the US style Gambling 3N

[jdonn]

gwnn, on Jul 31 2010, 01:25 PM, said:

4D is shortness ask and

4M shortness here
4N shortness in the other minor
5m this is my minor, I am 7222

I think you have 4N and 5m reversed?

[gurgistan]

Fluffy, on Aug 4 2010, 12:42 PM, said:

gurgistan, on Aug 4 2010, 05:25 PM, said:

Does anyone know which are more statistically likely: Gambling 3N type hands or the SA 25-27hcp balanced type hands?

the gambling.

But opening either hand with 3NT is a long term loser IMO

This begs the question: how are these hands to be opened then?

[gwnn]

oh yes well I didn't have them reversed but it does make more sense:)

[blackshoe]

The "gambling 3NT" hand: open 1m, rebid 3m.
The balanced 25-27: use Kokish or, if you can find another way to open a balanced 20-21 (such as opening 2♦ and rebidding 2NT), open 2NT (forcing to at least 3NT).

Note that when you show a strong balanced hand by bidding 2NT, you should have no more than a 2 point range (e.g., 25-26) because responder has no room to invite game. Rosenkranz and Truscott have a good discussion of this kind of thing in Bidding on Target, which is still in print.

[aguahombre]

Whatever you use an opening 3NT for, don't use it for something you can show in a different way. Those who play Regular old Namyats cannot open 4C or 4D with clubs or diamonds, so they might use 3NT in that situation as a replacement.

2C-2D
3NT (if 2D was waiting) can be the 25-27 hand.

Solid minor hands can open 1m (as AWM stated).

Long broken minor hands with outside card(s) can open 1m.

This leaves a gap for, say, AJ 8th and out which some use 3NT to show because they don't have 4m available.

[quiddity]

Regardless of whether gambling 3N is good or bad, opening a "nothing outside" gambling hand 1m and rebidding 3m seems completely terrible. Opening 1m and rebidding 2m seems only slightly less terrible.

[aguahombre]

yeh, well I was trying to stay away from value judgements in favor of system concerns. Will leave the "terribles" and WTP's and LOL's to the experts.

[jdonn]

quiddity, on Aug 4 2010, 03:07 PM, said:

Regardless of whether gambling 3N is good or bad, opening a "nothing outside" gambling hand 1m and rebidding 3m seems completely terrible. Opening 1m and rebidding 2m seems only slightly less terrible.

The second one seems fine to me!

[gurgistan]

I am thinking that Gambling 3N type hands should be opened as pre-emptive 3♣/3♦ as appropriate (no doubt as they once were) and that responder should be allowed to decide if 3N is on. I guess this negates the greater pre-emptive value of the 3N opener but it does right side the contract for 3N. Also, it prevents the responder from having to play in a bad 3N or bad 4♣/4♦.

[blackshoe]

The problem with that, Gurgi, is that modern 3 level preempts are a little too wide ranging, so sometimes partner will bid 3NT and go down. There is a solution, suggested by Rosenkranz and Alder in Godfrey's Stairway to the Stars, whereby you open 2NT with a bad preempt in either minor, and bid 3 of the minor with a preemptive hand with which you'd be happy to hear partner bid 3NT. Unforturnately, this solution is MidChart, so not available in GCC events.