[aguahombre]

Scoring: MP

---

Framework: 2/1, 15-17 NT ---respectable club game.
Opponents silent.

1C-1H (you decided to do that)
4H ? Opener is balanced with 4 hearts and 18-19

Those are the conditions. What do you do? Notice I didn't ask whether you liked the one heart response, or whether you would prefer some other way of showing what opener showed up to this point. There you are, and now what?

I think it is a sim case, but.....

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2010-August-06, 20:01

[rogerclee]

I think it is safe to say I would never move over 4H with a balanced 6 count, no matter how good that balanced 6 count might be.

This is not close, about the only hands where slam is very good is when partner has specifically Ax Kxxx AKxxx Ax, which is just on 4-2 diamonds, or something like Ax xxxx AKQJ Axx.

[the hog]

Pass. Would prefer a 6331 shape and would think about moving with that.

[jdonn]

I think it's close, I can think of lots of hands that are good slams. Any 2452 with good controls like Kx Kxxx AKJxx Ax. And yes some random hands off the heart king. Also I'm not worried about how to try, 5♥ would be obvious. The question is will 5♥ go down too often, and with xx in every side suit I have to say yes. So I'll pass.

Sorry I answered based on how I bid and think people should bid, but if he is just bidding 4♥ because he has 18-19 balanced (a hand where I usually bid 3♥) then I PASS!

[foo]

Agree with jdonn

[P_Marlowe]

5H.

Quatitative invite.

On 2nd though - 4NT, keycard.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[bluecalm]

Ezy pass if 4♥ is just 18-19 balanced with 4♥.
As to how to bid I don't know much about standard but I think it sucks to bid 3♥ on 18 balanced cound as well as great 14 with 1-4-5-3 shape or something.

According to fast simul (18-19 bal with 4♥ opposite OP hand):
5♥ makes only 56% so bidding anything now is pretty risky.

[pooltuna]

I agree it is a sim case but think the results will show that 7222 is a %age pass and 7321 is a %age go.

[Bbradley62]

We'd like to be in 6♥ opposite Ax, Kxxx, Ax, AKxxx but not opposite Ax, Kxxx, Axx, AKxx or Axx, Kxxx, Axx, AKx or AKx, Kxxx, Axx, Axx, etc. Since there doesn't appear to be a way to distinguish among these (and similar) hands, and since the "bad" hands greatly outnumber the "good" hands for partner, we're stuck in 4♥.

[neilkaz]

I'm also passing opposite 18-19 balanced since I think there's too many losers here unless we find pard with a near perfecta. We may be set in 5♥ on a bad day if he passes or have no play in 6♥ sometimes when he carries on to it.

[aguahombre]

Ok, so I asked people to accept the conditions. You did so, and I thank you.

This situation was given to me. Now: would an attempt to be descriptive have been better for responder? If so, would 3♥ be that attempt? In style, 2♥ would be less than a response in strength.

Maybe sloppy wording on this question. What I really want to know is what people think a 3H or 4H response to 1m should look like if it is natural within a 2/1 framework.

[bluecalm]

I think both 3♥ and 4♥ should be natural with at least 5-4 shape (6-4 for 4♥).
All strong balanced hands and other monsters should go through some gadget. Like for example 2 other major which requires a lot of work on system but that's life with standard - in attempt to have a system with "natural" openings you have something which is basically unplayable without tons of gadgetry and work on systemic understanding.

For example here you really need to have a way to show:

x KQxx AKJxxx xx

and:

Ax AKxx AKJxx xx

Both hands want to be in 4♥. Having one bid for them is terrible not to mention that you need space for different kind of hands within 18-21 balanced and 6-4 ranges too.

[aguahombre]

? question is about responder's first bid, or maybe you are still on the OP question which had given conditions. Certainly you are correct, though ---that the two hands you gave as examples should not rebid the same way after a heart response.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2010-August-07, 10:35

[bluecalm]

Oh, I am sorry. I automatically assumed the question is about opener rebid.
I don't see any need for other bid than 1♥ with that hand.
I am happy to signoff in 2♥ opposite weak NT type or any other weak hand so I don't want to go beyond 2♥ on my first bid.

I really need to stop posting when multitabling games with more than 2 cards

[peachy]

1H response is right and descriptive. Not many has a specific descriptive bid that says '7 hearts to two top honors, no shape, nothing on side'. I like 4H a powerhouse with 4+ cards and no singleton, but I suppose *18-19 balanced* is close to the same. Pass is very normal. I would not even be thinking of going on.

[Bbradley62]

Over 1m, if 1♥=forward-going, 2♥=weak and 3♥=splinter, 4♥ should show something close to this hand.

Unless opener held a magic hand, 4♥ should have been the right place. What did she have?

[aguahombre]

actual opening bidder's hand is not really important, other than knowing it fits the conditions and is one of the many where 4H should be the final contract. This was intended as a simple judgement question as to the value and choices for the responding hand.

We don't use 3H splinter/1m ---so 1H, 3H, and 4H all show hearts. In that context, most would respond 1H ---I am still not sure whether 3H instead of 1H is a better description. If someone could say what they think a natural 3H response would show, it would be helpful to me.

I thought a 4H response to 1m should be something other than a flat hand ---and 2 2 2 is flat.

[jdonn]

I think a natural 3M or 4M response shows a hand that you traditionally would have opened with that bid, making this an easy 3M response if you play it. I don't think you should do it on crazy or very shapely hands though since opener has no slam try in your major below game.

[JLOGIC]

jdonn, on Aug 7 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

I think a natural 3M or 4M response shows a hand that you traditionally would have opened with that bid, making this an easy 3M response if you play it. I don't think you should do it on crazy or very shapely hands though since opener has no slam try in your major below game.

Really? I think every bid is a slam try in your major lol.

[jdonn]

JLOGIC, on Aug 7 2010, 08:09 PM, said:

jdonn, on Aug 7 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

I think a natural 3M or 4M response shows a hand that you traditionally would have opened with that bid, making this an easy 3M response if you play it. I don't think you should do it on crazy or very shapely hands though since opener has no slam try in your major below game.

Really? I think every bid is a slam try in your major lol.

Lol well I never thought about it, it seems to me you should be able to play in other suits! But maybe 3♠/3♥ and 4♥/3♠ as a slam try makes sense, you won't want to play in the other major.