[gwnn]

18 count with 6 spades is not very likely, whether or not you make a penalty pass with it should not really matter in balancing position's choice of action, I mean if you suddenly change from passing as much as 17 points with 6-3-3-1 to passing as much as 18 points, it should not really change your tendency to protect with 1444 from 10 points to 9 points or so. Much more important is the normal case, i.e. partner and preemptor's partner both have a weak no trump, give or take a queen, and whether we should be looking for a fit on the 3 level.

[MickyB]

I thought 3♣ first time quite an overbid, and 3♣ second time a big underbid. I tried 2NT then 3NT, which led to 5♣ making when oppo tried to cash two spades and a heart went away on the ♦K.

[gwnn]

It's an overbid but at least you bid your suit. BTW what do you play 2NT then 3NT as?

[whereagles]

3♣ as well, though I might have bid that the round before

[Cyberyeti]

gwnn, on Aug 2 2010, 08:43 AM, said:

18 count with 6 spades is not very likely, whether or not you make a penalty pass with it should not really matter in balancing position's choice of action, I mean if you suddenly change from passing as much as 17 points with 6-3-3-1 to passing as much as 18 points, it should not really change your tendency to protect with 1444 from 10 points to 9 points or so. Much more important is the normal case, i.e. partner and preemptor's partner both have a weak no trump, give or take a queen, and whether we should be looking for a fit on the 3 level.

I'd protect an 0454 0 count in 4th seat, partner is marked with a biggish hand and a spade stack given the lack of a raise or invite, that's my point, if I have 1 or no spades, there is virtually no hand on which I won't protect. Occasionally I'm wrong, but it's worked well so far on balance.

That said, I feel that while this hand is actually quite a good shape, I feel there is no hand with 6 clubs too good for 3C that didn't overcall initially. I would show an 8 count "the bad way" through Lebensohl to a protective double.

[gwnn]

do you really double on a 0454 0 count? so how will partner know when to pass it? sure with 18 and 6 spades he will but 14 with 4 spades? also how will he know when he should bid 4 hearts if your range is apparently 0-30?

[Cyberyeti]

gwnn, on Aug 2 2010, 12:01 PM, said:

do you really double on a 0454 0 count? so how will partner know when to pass it? sure with 18 and 6 spades he will but 14 with 4 spades? also how will he know when he should bid 4 hearts if your range is apparently 0-30?

The 14 count with 4 spades never arises opposite the zero count 0454 as opps with 26 points and 9 spades have done something.

2N followed by 3H (we play our leb the wrong way round) is sort of an 11 count with 5 hearts and not a stiff spade, so there's only a real issue if he has a 17 count with 5 hearts and unsuitable for 2N, 3H or X, which hasn't happened yet.

Last time this occurred, I doubled with a 5 count, partner had the 13 with 5 spades and we collected 500 against nothing.

[sathyab]

Phil, on Aug 1 2010, 11:09 AM, said:

I think this is a routine overcall at any form of scoring.

Would bid 4♣ now.

If my suit was a major I can understand overcalling 2M at MP, but how is this a "routine" overcall at any form of the game at any vulnerability ? What are the modern requirements for overcoming a 2-level preempt ?

[bluecalm]

I am not fan of "protecting" at all.

x Axxx Kxxx KTxx is about as low as I would go. My philosophy is to bid on slightest excuse so we don't have to balance and rescue them if they are in wrong spot or give away 800's just because "partne might be trapping".

Quote

What are the modern requirements for overcoming a 2-level preempt

It has nothing to do about "overcoming". You have a hand which on average will make 3♣ assuming partner has about 2 tricks (or 7count as american version of this rule says) so you overcall.

[aguahombre]

bluecalm, on Aug 7 2010, 02:08 AM, said:

It has nothing to do about "overcoming". You have a hand which on average will make 3♣ assuming partner has about 2 tricks (or 7count as american version of this rule says) so you overcall.

Is this true? 7 count=2 tricks on average opposite this hand? And does that give us 9 tricks or a gain over their Major suit contract?

I suck at sims, hence the question.

[bluecalm]

I am not talking about sims here.
One needs to assume something in partner hand when making bids.
It's needed for 2 reasons:

a)if you assume 0 you would never bid with anything
b)partner needs to know what constitutes extras in his hand so he won't go crazy "because I could've 0 partner"

Now traditional rule in america from what I understand from old textbooks is that you assume about 7hcp.

Some polish theoreticians developed much better and more detailed ways of this "assuming" in various situations as well as evaluating strength of this hand.
(for example according to those methods our + partner's hand is worth about 8.75 tricks on average here so 3♣ is slight overbid according to them).

There is however much better rule which I believe in and I suspect most good players go by it instead of some sophisticated scientific stuff. The rule is:
"If you have good 6+card suit and decent hand you show it at first opportunity".

[aguahombre]

Am failing miserably at asking questions so they can be understood.

Of course, overcaller should assume his partner has something; and about 7 seems good to me. I don't know, however, whether (a sim might help) the assumed 7 makes 3C an appropriate overcall in direct seat with this hand. Further, I was questioning whether --on average -- 7 HCP really translates to two tricks in support of clubs.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Am failing miserably at asking questions so they can be understood.

Probably the reason my answers don't fit the questions too well is me having 9 tables of PLO going which really hurts my reading comprehension.
Anyway according to methods I mentioned this hand will make average of 8.75 assuming "2 tricks" from partner. I dunno about 7hcp. It seems to me that 3♣ is about right but of course this question is not easy to answer.
What is even harder to question to answer is what you really should assume and why 7hcp and not 8 or 9 for example.

I am gonna run a sim assumimg 7-8hcp soon.

[aguahombre]

36 Palestinian bridge players?

[bluecalm]

As to if 7hcp translates to 2 tricks I have no idea.
I saw this "7hcp" stuff in american textbooks (by Lawrence).
In Poland we traditionally use 2 tricks with some adjustments bidding position. I didn't mean to say that those 2 methods are the same or that 7hcp translates into 2 tricks.

Anyway, opposite 7-8hcp balanced this hand will make 8.5 tricks on average in clubs. 3♣ will make 50% of the time according to my simul.

[benlessard]

If possible GF with half a stopper otherwise i go the no stopper way.

[MFA]

I would try 2N then 3N. 3N is our most likely game since we have tricks and (almost) a stopper and partner doesn't need to have true club fit. This hand is too strong for 3♣ now. It's not just a 10 count with a 6-card suit. It is AQxxxx, A, etc.; huge potential for 9 tricks in 3N.

Would not have overcalled 3♣ in the first round.

[Codo]

I had passed first but now...

For me 2 NT 3 NT does not show doubt about strain but a stopper- 3 NT direct would deny one. (This may not be the greatest tool, but this is our meta-agreement.)

So 3 ♠ is asking for help in spades. Would work well here. If partner denies help, I can bid 5 ♣.

With the given system, I would gamble 3 NT.