[Brandal]

"I suspect that $10 per set it too much for many Poles, and it is a shame that they miss out on a great product as a result."

In my opinion a free tournament with 100 pairs is a better product than a paid tournament with 10-20 pairs,because the scoring would be more accurate the more tables in the tournament.With say 10 scores on the sheet you leave alot more to luck than with 50 scores.....

I've even seen 1 table paid tournament,those must be a blast.....

It would instigate more paid tournaments,and I am against pay-to-play tourneys.
More cheating,more annoyed when someone at table or me disconnected and replaced,more "heat" from annoyed partners........I honestly don't see a positive thing for me(the player).

[fred]

I really do not understand the people who clearly express a
"I will not play in pay tourneys" attitude.

Why not? If you can't afford it I understand (but I don't think
anyone has made this point). If you believe that our current
group of pay tourneys do not add enough "extra value" to
make them worth the price, I also understand, but I don't
think this is about value.

Instead the general attitude of this group seems to be "I won't
play in pay tourneys on principle".

What principle?

Suppose that an imaginary pay tourney cost 5 cents to play in,
you were guaranteed good TDs, and, after the tourney, a famous
expert player talked about the hands in a chat room with all
of the participants. Furthermore, you received an "annotated
bridge movie" containing all the hands you played and had a
chance to win a monthly $1000 drawing.

I would hope that such a tournament would represent great
value to just about all of our members. If you had a choice of
playing in a random free tournament or spending 5 cents to
play in the imaginary tourney I described, would you really
play in the free tourney? If so, why?

Even if you feel that our current pay tourneys do not represent
good value for you, there is still a case to be made for playing in
them once in a while: doing so helps support BBO.

Do you feel that the fact that you happen to have a pulse "entitles"
you to a free, high-quality, online bridge service?

Do you feel it is your right to phone me on my toll free number
(ie I pay for the call) every time "waiting for response from server"
takes longer than usual (and then be rude to me when I tell you that
you will have to just sit there and wait for the server to respond)?
Is it reasonable for you to make design suggestions to Uday (whose
time is woth at least $100 an hour and who has probably put in
close to 10,000 upaid hours working on BBO - you do the math)
and then get angry at his polite response "thanks for the suggestion,
but we have good reasons for our design in this area"?

Many people ask us how we keep BBO free. Here's how:

Our dollars costs are less than $10,000 per year. We are very
fortunate that this does not mean a lot of money for any of us
(I make more than this by playing professionally at a typical
ACBL Nationals).

Furthermore, we want BBO to be free and we can PROMISE you
that it will remain free as long we can afford to keep it that way.
It is our SINCERE hope that this will be "forever".

BBO is cheap to run in terms of dollars, but our time costs are
significant. If we had to pay Uday, myself, Sheri, all the yellows,
Roland and all the vugraph commentators and operators, the
person who handles abuse (close to a full time job and a miserable
job - 3 cheers for Rain for taking a turn at this) and hire a real
manager to run our company like a real business, our costs would
be well over $1 million per year.

In other words, you are getting a lot for nothing.

Many, many people actually realize this and we greatly appreciate
every one of the many kind thank-yous and compliments that we
receive from these people. We also appreciate that a lot of these
people make an effort to buy one of our software products or play
in some of our pay tournaments if, for no other reason, then to make
an effort to "give something back".

That other group of people, the "I won't pay to play in tourneys"
crowd either have not considered the issues in this post or they
do not agree with them. In either case, I hope this post will result
in some of you people at least thinking about it.

If every BBO player who could easily afford to do so played in
one $1 pay tourney every 2 weeks (or bought a set of Bridge
Master hands every few months, or...), it would make a big
difference to our lives. It won't make a big difference to yours.

As a bonus, supporting BBO by participating in the BB$ economy,
results in better software and better service for everyone.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

PS Please feel free to criticize this post. You won't get banned.

[DrTodd13]

Deanrover, on Jul 31 2004, 08:49 PM, said:

DrTodd13, on Jul 31 2004, 08:28 PM, said:

Yes, indeed, who is John Galt?  Not the people who came up with this idea for sure.

While the host may want to maximize profits, they should realize that people may get upset for being charged more just because they have more money.  They may end up only having people from the poor countries play and anybody from a rich country shouldl boycott due to the injustice.  What is next?  Different races being charged different prices and how do you plan on determing who is from what country?  If you implement this then everyone will change their country to Ghana or something.

Todd - presumably you never go to the cinema, because they employ "ageist" pricing strategies such discounts for students, children and Oaps. Presumably family discounts are homophobic, asexualphobic and infertilephobic? Presumably you don't have any car insurance because they charge more for men, what a terribly sexist thing to do!

Nope, I never go to the cinema. I have to have car insurance because that is mandated by law. I don't even have a problem with different car insurance premiums because statistically men have more accidents. I don't blame these places that charge different rates because I believe in freedom and they can discriminate however they want. However, I have the power to discriminate as well and I use it to boycott people who employ such policies.

[Deanrover]

DrTodd13, on Aug 1 2004, 06:01 PM, said:

Deanrover, on Jul 31 2004, 08:49 PM, said:

DrTodd13, on Jul 31 2004, 08:28 PM, said:

Yes, indeed, who is John Galt?  Not the people who came up with this idea for sure.

While the host may want to maximize profits, they should realize that people may get upset for being charged more just because they have more money.  They may end up only having people from the poor countries play and anybody from a rich country shouldl boycott due to the injustice.  What is next?  Different races being charged different prices and how do you plan on determing who is from what country?  If you implement this then everyone will change their country to Ghana or something.

Todd - presumably you never go to the cinema, because they employ "ageist" pricing strategies such discounts for students, children and Oaps. Presumably family discounts are homophobic, asexualphobic and infertilephobic? Presumably you don't have any car insurance because they charge more for men, what a terribly sexist thing to do!

Nope, I never go to the cinema. I have to have car insurance because that is mandated by law. I don't even have a problem with different car insurance premiums because statistically men have more accidents. I don't blame these places that charge different rates because I believe in freedom and they can discriminate however they want. However, I have the power to discriminate as well and I use it to boycott people who employ such policies.

I never knew that car insurance was mandated by law. My brother does not drive, so he does not have car insurance, but he is clearly a criminal so I'll go call the police. Think how much more a young male pays that a middle aged woman for car insurance. Over a live time of driving you will probably have to spend at least $2000 more insurance due to not being the right age, right sex, living in the right area etc. But you seem perfectly happy to do this. Yet when the idea that BBO might charge 50 cents less for a tourney for people from Poland, a people who are poor through no fault of their own rather 50 years of Nazi and Communist oppresion, you are suddenly appalled. Presumably when you want to go to the theatre, or a sports match, or buy some clothes you go to the store and ask "do you do family/young persons/OAP discounts?" and when they say "Yes" you refuse to purchase their product. Presumably you have never ever played at a real life bridge club because the 99% chance is that they offer some sort of age based discounts.

[guggie]

Answer to Fred: I think BBO is really great and I surely appreciate it and would be very willing to pay for it.
One of the things I like most is the idea that BBO is created out of passion for the brdige game, with the goal to improve on bridge all around. I have the feeling that you really care about making internetbridge possible for countries where economics is less developed.
I would not mind paying for BBO.
I have bought bbo dollars to participate in the tournamnets of \Mirjam_3 as she is my friend. Also I have done one ACBL tournament but that really is no fun for europeans.
What I dislike about the payed tournaments is that they dont make any other impression than being created for making money, whilst thannouncements suggest it is high quality. So far it is not any better quality than other tournaments. Well be honest than and say you wan to make money.

[Brandal]

To mr. Fred

---If you had a choice of playing in a random free tournament
---or spending 5 cents to play in the imaginary tourney I described,
---would you really play in the free tourney? If so, why?

Well Fred,I'm not here to play for money,I have actually won a few
tourneys and I never wished "ohhh....if only there was money in it
for me".In other words I play for the enjoyment alone.
Now,having believed the Hosts/TDs of each tourney got the starting money
alone,not knowing some of the $ found their way to BBO to help with
expenses running BBO,I chose not to play in pay tourneys.

It is NOT a principle,as I have to pay to play "live" bridge it is not some
shocking observation to me that people charge to arrange.

When some of it goes to help financing BBO as a site,I see pay tourneys
differently and will consider p(l)aying in those tourneys who help finance BBO.
I'm not at all against small fees to keep BBO up and running,we get so much back.

---Do you feel that the fact that you happen to have a pulse "entitles"
---you to a free, high-quality,online bridge service?

No I do not.

I will think this over,including the rest of what you wrote that I haven't quoted,
and find out what's best for me.

I appreciate your cander and insight,there were a few things in your post I
haven't given any thought until now.

[sceptic]

Sherri, Fred, Uday,

The time and effort you put into this site is amazing, you must really love the game, you have offered me and everyone else something totally free and given me the chance to learn this game (which I love) properly, I brought my $40 worth of BBO bucks with the intention of playing in some pay tourneys, I have probably spent $10, which is a paltry sum one I can easily afford (I am not rich by the way), I would have no issue with paying to play here, it is the best site I have used and I think I have tried them all except okbridge.

I have no issue with pay tourneys, with or without prizes, I brought bridgemaster from one of your yellows, I buy books from amazon, this I think I should put right, I will use the shop from now on for what ever I want, if you dont have it, I will ask first, then try else where, I think it is the least i can do, no where else and no one else has ever offered me so much for so little asked of us in return.

Perhaps the advertising is a way to generate cash, I hope it proves fruitful for you, it may be worth asking amazon for a link here for book sales as I know they pay you commision if the link is followed up (just an idea), I am sure other book cyber sellers would do the same sort of deal for you, you just need to ask them and it will save you a lot of hassle (you probably already looked into it).

So all I say to the rest is why not buy the products and does the odd pay tourney hurt when a % of the cash goes to someone who has given us so much so much of their time ( time is the only thing that you cant get back once it has gone it has gone)

[Gweny]

Big thanks to Fred, Uday, and Sheri for this wonderful site and all you give to us. I still am in awe at how many FREE learning resources are available to me and anyother person "with pulse" just by logging on.

Thanks again for best bridge on internet.

[1eyedjack]

Fred

I am not one of those who have an objection in principle to playing in a pay tourney, so perhaps I should let those who do answer for themselves, but I speculate that one of the reasons is the dreaded ch**ting issue.

Having said that I have no objection in principle I should, I think, find it more palatable, or, to use perhaps a more appropriate emphasis, less unpalatable, to be ch**ted out of first place in a tournament that I had not paid for than one that I had paid for.

I am one of those who thinks that ch**ting is rather less prevalent than is thought by most of those who have expressed an opinion in this forum, but it does seem to be generally a matter of concern amongst others, and I don't see that it is anything that you can solve, without making the service pretty unpleasant in other respects.

[Frosty]

I am glad you took the opportunity to vent, Fred!

I'm a fence sitter regarding the "Pay" tournies. I don't feel that TD's should be charging - rather, just as yellow's and stars are chosen, I think BBO should have reserved the right to determine who is eligible to charge and who isn't. But I also understand why BBO didn't go that route since the policy is largely one of self-determination. I respect both BBO's position and the right of other TD's to charge if they choose. I play in pay tournies if that's when I'm playing and free tournies if that's when I'm playing. The fee is reasonable, and what BBO provides for the players is certainly worth more than I'll spend at BBO. I frankly don 't care who gets what part of it.

(Hmmm - it occurs to me that maybe I don't have a pulse afterall LOL).

That having been said, I am flabberghasted that people would be so utterly devoid of common courtesy as to call you on your toll free # (free to them - not to you) for such petty issues. Peoples' manners never cease to amaze even me! I think you should change your #. Why have a # where BBO members can reach you except for those you specifically designate - you are WAY too kind! Besides - isn't the negative Email enough??

Here's the bottom line - Fred/Uday/Sherry and the yellows that work so hard - do NOT owe us anything. It's the other way around. We, the BBO members - though apparently ungrateful - are on the owing end of this bargain. We've been provided a technologically advanced, responsive and fully functional site at no charge to us. For this, the founders and worker bees have recieved a disproportionate amount of "guff" rather than the appreciation which they all richly deserve! The player community may never fully realize the hours the core group commits to BBO. When I was young enough to do it, I had a career designing, building, enhancing and supporting new computer systems - 80 hours work weeks were common. Not quite so far back there was a brief tour of duty as one of a player group administrating the online bridge site that AOL abandonned - a genuinely thankless task. I don't need any more peeks in the window to know what the core group at BBO has sacrificed. I guaran-darn-tee you, most of us couldn't and wouldn't do it.

For those of my fellow BBO members who don't want to play in pay tournaments - I don't see the benefit in biting the hand that feeds you. No one is required to patronize the pay tournies. Why not just make your own choices and forego the criticism? There are plenty of free events still available.

I was going to suggest that BBO members should be charged commensurate with their inclination to criticize/gripe/whine, but thought better of it since I might not be able to afford it LOL

Thanks for all you do for us - Yellows, Fred, Uday and Sherry.

Frosty

[guggie]

Maybe i should make my point more clear. A lot of people give their time free to BBO, as BBO gives many things free to them. That created a great athmosphere.
Then ACBL start with payed tournaments. For non_ACBL players a little annoying, crowding up the tournamentslist and regular general callings even if you have shut down lobby chat, but further no big deal.
Immediately afterwards a number of TD's, covering the european play time, made a congsi to have their tournaments payed. So far it is not clear why these TD's should be payed and others not. In my opinion their action is against the BBO feeling for giving back free for what you get free.

I think that the "I am against payed tournaments" sentimenst are directed against the TD's, not against BBO.

I would rather pay to BBO.

[rona_]

I voted that I don't really care about different pricing but, as someone else mentioned, in poorer countries, people who own computers, have an internet connection AND play bridge can afford to pay a dollar to play in a tournament. At the moment I live in a developing country where one dollar is a lot of money for the man in the street. But the man-in-the-street, doesn't play bridge. I log on from a developing country, who is to decide whether I should play at a discount? My honesty? The whole idea is just beyond me but as I said, I do not care.

Some people play in ACBL tourneys even though they aren't members and have no interest in masterpointsis .
they play to give something back to BBO . This must be the best online bridge-site and obviously a lot of people are putting in a lot of time and effort to keep it running smoothly.

But what really takes the cake? The people who will not pay to play and who say they will leave if they have to pay membership fees, are also the ones to make special requests about ads...i.e. no pop-ups please. I don't want to have to click to close the ad etc.....Geez, what is this world coming to!