[Fluffy]

Scoring: IMP

---

our 2 tables perpetrated this nonsense (I wasn't NS luckilly), both NS players playing strong club


1♣-(3♥)-X-(5♥)
X-all pass


2♣-(3♥)-5♣-all pass


on 5♥X it was even worse, perfect defence allows to ruff 2 diamonds for 800 but the defence started ♠K->♠A->♣AK and south finished endplayed with ♦A for 300 only

[pooltuna]

Fluffy, on Feb 10 2010, 08:29 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

our 2 tables perpetrated this nonsense (I wasn't NS luckilly), both NS players playing strong club


1♣-(3♥)-X-(5♥)
X-all pass


2♣-(3♥)-5♣-all pass


on 5♥X it was even worse, perfect defence allows to ruff 2 diamonds for 800 but the defence started ♠K->♠A->♣AK and south finished endplayed with ♦A for 300 only

Both south's assigned the majority of the blame #1 should have passed 5♥ (this has gotta b forcing and maybe showing ♠ tolerance(?) ) while #2 IMO bidding 2♣ seems a travesty with this good a hand.

[quiddity]

I would be tempted to cuebid 4H with the North hand after either opening.
Well, maybe not after 2C. I guess a double is negative in that case?

[jdonn]

South forgot his partner had shown 4 spades. He might even stretch to bid slam if his opponents are to be believed.

[cherdanno]

jdonn, on Feb 10 2010, 01:56 PM, said:

South forgot his partner had shown 4 spades. He might even stretch to bid slam if his opponents are to be believed.

In fact, he forgot that twice! First in the bidding, then when not overtaking the lead to cash ♦A and play a spade back.

[karlson]

jdonn, on Feb 10 2010, 10:56 AM, said:

South forgot his partner had shown 4 spades. He might even stretch to bid slam if his opponents are to be believed.

Really? I have zero relevant experience playing strong club, but I always thought it was normal to double here with decent balanced or semi-balanced hands regardless of spade length.

[jdonn]

Oh strong club. Well in that case south should pass anyway, he still shouldn't double. Then north would probably pull to 5♠ since he shouldn't have 5 and south could probably raise.

[nigel_k]

On the first one North is blameless. He can't have felt that good about passing the double but he has nowhere to go. South should make a forcing pass and North bid 5NT choice of slams then South 6♣. It's too hard to reach grand I think.

On the second one South has to open a strong club (Kaplan/Rubens 20.25). After opening only 2♣ South should also probably bid 6♣ at the end but it's just a guess at that point. I would bid 4♥ instead of 5♣ with North but I'm still giving South 90%.

[MFA]

We play 4♥ as a perfect 3-suiter over 1♣-3♥. Either 5440 type or 4441 with some extras. These situations shows why. It's very uncomfortable for the strong club opener to introduce a suit at a high level when the double could be any bal or semibal hand. So at the very least we would get to 6♣ for sure.

Without that agreement, south should pass 5♥ and north pull to probably 5NT. 5♠ still sounds like a five card suit in spite of the initial double.

The second sequence is tough. 5♣ seems normal enough, although it's almost good enough for 4♥. Perhaps south should try 6♣. Would have been better to upgrade to 1♣ in the first place.

[PhantomSac]

MFA, on Feb 10 2010, 03:34 PM, said:

We play 4♥ as a perfect 3-suiter over 1♣-3♥. Either 5440 type or 4441 with some extras. These situations shows why. It's very uncomfortable for the strong club opener to introduce a suit at a high level when the double could be any bal or semibal hand. So at the very least we would get to 6♣ for sure.

Yes, also because imo the strong club bidder will often pass the double very aggressively and without trump length on balanced hands.

Still, surely doubling 5H with xx hearts and 6-4 primed out is awful once they've bid 5H. South had an easy 6C bid. Does he really expect partner to have much heart length/values? Even something like KJxx x Kxxx Qxxx is a very good slam, and add a little more and its cold. If you pass 5H partner will double with hands like that.

South should just acknowledge the fact that the opps will always have 10 hearts here and sometimes 11, and they'll almost always have the high ones, and bid accordingly.

[MFA]

PhantomSac, on Feb 10 2010, 11:31 PM, said:

MFA, on Feb 10 2010, 03:34 PM, said:

We play 4♥ as a perfect 3-suiter over 1♣-3♥. Either 5440 type or 4441 with some extras. These situations shows why. It's very uncomfortable for the strong club opener to introduce a suit at a high level when the double could be any bal or semibal hand. So at the very least we would get to 6♣ for sure.

Yes, also because imo the strong club bidder will often pass the double very aggressively and without trump length on balanced hands.

Still, surely doubling 5H with xx hearts and 6-4 primed out is awful once they've bid 5H. South had an easy 6C bid. Does he really expect partner to have much heart length/values? Even something like KJxx x Kxxx Qxxx is a very good slam, and add a little more and its cold. If you pass 5H partner will double with hands like that.

South should just acknowledge the fact that the opps will always have 10 hearts here and sometimes 11, and they'll almost always have the high ones, and bid accordingly.

I disagree that bidding 6♣ over 5♥ is easy. But it's possible. I'm always wary of trusting opponents' bidding too much when they are favourable. But it depends on who they are.

[jukmoi]

After 1♣ and 3♥ double shows for us any GF hand with no biddable 5+c suit. We have no agreement what 4♥ means. South has minimum values for 1♣ opener. That speaks for double over 5♥. On the other hand he has nothing wasted in hearts so I think pass is best. North would bid 5♠ and south has a guess. Well done by opponents. With this vulnerability even 54 hearts is a distinct possibility.

After 2♣ I think north has minimum values for 4♥ GF with club support. After that it is possible to get to even 7♣ via cuebidding sequence.