[Winstonm]

neilkaz, on Aug 29 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Aug 29 2009, 12:28 PM, said:

I don't mind the 10xxx stopper for 1N, but the overall hand isn't strong enough for this free bid.  If I held the same hand with 9-10 hcps I would chose 1N over negative double.

Hmm PD opened..we'd respond 1NT with 6 HCP. Why do we need to be stronger here?

In standard bidding, the reason for responding with 5-6 HCPs is due to the fact that partner may have been forced by system to open a 20-21 point hand at the 1-level. We are required to bid one time to keep the bidding open and cater to this possibility.

Edit: As an interesting note, the earliest books on Precision remarked on the benefit of the limited one bid that responder did NOT have to always keep the bidding open with 6-7 HCPs.

Now that RHO has interfered - partner will get another chance to act and thus we can separate our bids and make them more precise. An immediate 1N can now show 9-10 and a pass followed by a subsequent NT bid can show 6-8.

[neilkaz]

Winstonm, on Aug 29 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

neilkaz, on Aug 29 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Aug 29 2009, 12:28 PM, said:

I don't mind the 10xxx stopper for 1N, but the overall hand isn't strong enough for this free bid.  If I held the same hand with 9-10 hcps I would chose 1N over negative double.

Hmm PD opened..we'd respond 1NT with 6 HCP. Why do we need to be stronger here?

In standard bidding, the reason for responding with 5-6 HCPs is due to the fact that partner may have been forced by system to open a 20-21 point hand at the 1-level. We are required to bid one time to keep the bidding open and cater to this possibility.

Now that RHO has interfered - partner will get another chance to act and thus we can separate our bids and make them more precise. An immediate 1N can now show 9-10 and a pass followed by a subsequent NT bid can show 6-8.

Thx for the nice explanation. I've always played that you ignore the opp overcall and bid 1 Nt with 6 to 10- as long as you think it likely to have a stopper.

I think I probably play with too many PD's that don't know how to reopen.

[Winstonm]

neilkaz, on Aug 29 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Aug 29 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

neilkaz, on Aug 29 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Aug 29 2009, 12:28 PM, said:

I don't mind the 10xxx stopper for 1N, but the overall hand isn't strong enough for this free bid.  If I held the same hand with 9-10 hcps I would chose 1N over negative double.

Hmm PD opened..we'd respond 1NT with 6 HCP. Why do we need to be stronger here?

In standard bidding, the reason for responding with 5-6 HCPs is due to the fact that partner may have been forced by system to open a 20-21 point hand at the 1-level. We are required to bid one time to keep the bidding open and cater to this possibility.

Now that RHO has interfered - partner will get another chance to act and thus we can separate our bids and make them more precise. An immediate 1N can now show 9-10 and a pass followed by a subsequent NT bid can show 6-8.

Thx for the nice explanation. I've always played that you ignore the opp overcall and bid 1 Nt with 6 to 10- as long as you think it likely to have a stopper.

I think I probably play with too many PD's that don't know how to reopen.

What we are talking about here is an old fashioned concept of "free bids" and I think it is confusing because much of the old style has been discredited as too conservative - and that viewpoint to a large degree has been proven true.

However, the area of freely bidding 1NT has not changed a great deal and has stood the test of time that it should show better than minimum values.

[Winstonm]

Quote

However, the area of freely bidding 1NT has not changed a great deal and has stood the test of time that it should show better than minimum values.

Not that I am the end-all expert on these things, but I can expand a little on my thinking and maybe it will help.

If you held 5-6 balanced and "knew for a fact" that partner had opened a flat 12-count the only reason to bid would be to steal the contract from the opponents - and even then it would be risky because you could go down more than the value of the contract they ccould make.

It seems some players fear that opener won't reopen - well, if opener won't reopen chances are pretty good that the opponents are not in their best contract. If they have 22 combined and you have 18, it isn't so bad for them to play 1S in a 5/2 fit rather than 1N or 2C, 2D, or 2H in a better fit.

Sometimes, silence is still golden.

[eyhung]

I agree with the principle that 1NT after the overcall does not show 6-10, it shows a slightly better hand because partner now has another chance to act. But defining it as 9-10 feels much too tight. One important idea in competitive bidding is showing partner that you have useful values -- there is a huge difference between a worthless hand (no controls, no tricks) and a hand with some value. Remember your experience playing contracts where one hand is broke, usually after 2NT all pass or 1m all pass -- you take far fewer tricks than you would expect because you cannot reach the weak hand to lead up to the strong hand. Letting partner know that this doesn't exist is important, so I prefer 1NT to be more like a good 7 - 10 HCP here.

With your length in spades, partner will frequently be short in the overcalled suit so will often act if you pass, but sometimes partner does not have a clearcut action at his second turn. For example, sometimes the opponents raise to 2S and now partner has to guess whether your side should compete to the 3-level when you could be potentially broke. So I would strive to bid 1NT here on any 8-count or a good 7 with a real stopper (usually at least 2 controls: ace = 2, king = 1, but possibly a hand that contains a double-stopper of spades such as KQx and a queen on the side).

Without a real stopper, passing (or raising partner's opening bid) becomes more attractive. The actual hand is a good 7 (2 controls, the king of partner's suit, good intermediates) but lacks a real stop, so I will pass and await further developments. If I had slightly more values to compensate for the lack of a real stopper, I would bid 1NT and let partner in on the good news that I do not have a worthless hand.

[Winstonm]

Quote

I agree with the principle that 1NT after the overcall does not show 6-10, it shows a slightly better hand because partner now has another chance to act. But defining it as 9-10 feels much too tight.

No argument from me - 10 would be a bad 10 and 9 could be a good 8 that I miscounted.

[Jlall]

8 to a bad 11 imo.

[FrancesHinden]

For once I'm going to disagree somewhat with Jlall.
The princple that you need a little more to bid 1NT here than if RHO passed is correct. The exact point counts get more flexible: you might bid 2NT with the right 10-count, it depends what your points and spade stops look like.

I think 8-11 is too much. It is also partly a function ofhow light you like to open, if you think any ratty 11-count is an opening bid you need a little more to invite as responder.

As for the original hand, there is bridge and there is love all at matchpoints. I would double (which I much prefer to 1NT). If partner has a balanced minimum I don't want to defend 1S, which is exactly what is going to happen. Of course, I trust partner to bid 1NT on some boring 3532 not bid 2D. If partner gets excited I'm not embarrassed as what I have is well placed.

[Phil]

The 1N in competition argument comes around every year or two and I've always been an advocate of lighter 1N calls, like Frances.

NV, especially at MPs, there is a lot of reason to make a light 1N call (although the subject hand is underweight).

At IMPs, there is less justification for making the call on the right 6 count, especially in a possible misfit auction.

[Winstonm]

Quote

If partner has a balanced minimum I don't want to defend 1S, which is exactly what is going to happen

You prefer being -100 or -150 to being -80? Or would you prefer to keep the bidding alive so they can find a better fit for +110 or +130?

Here is what I said above - feel free to disagree:

Quote

It seems some players fear that opener won't reopen - well, if opener won't reopen chances are pretty good that the opponents are not in their best contract. If they have 22 combined and you have 18, it isn't so bad for them to play 1S in a 5/2 fit rather than 1N or 2C, 2D, or 2H in a better fit.

If we have the balance of power, more than likely partner will balance over 1S. Even if he doesn't defending 1S may be our best spot.

[phil_20686]

Something else no one has mentionsed is the increasingh tendency to open light.

If your partner will routinely open with

x
KQxxx
KQxx
xxx

then bidding 1N on a decent 6 like

KJTx
xx
xx
QTxxx

makes almost no sense. In america experts seem to be a little more conservative in terms of opening bids, but over in europe people are opening a lot of ten counts with some shape. The benefits are principlally when you have a fit, and since allt eh hands you would bid 1NT on have less than 3 hearts, you should be worried about having a lot less than the balance of the points and no real fit. -200 is a disaster on a parscore boards. If your partner only opens solid 12's then 1nt on 6-10 makes a bit more sense. But i would be worried about partners ability to bid 3/2 when its right with such a wide variation in strength and hand type for the 1NT.

I prefer 8-11 as the 1N bid in competition. This protects partner when he has opened light. This is especially important when you have a singleton heart or a two card minor, since when partner opens light he will have some shape. Most importantly i think it helps partner compete over teh likely 2s bid. Its very important that he should know when to defend here, and he is more likely to want to bid on when you are stronger. Opposite 6-10 1NT with a nice looking 15 count he has to decide whether to look at game or compete into the 3 level or pass. I think these hands account for more MP (and imps) than the hands where you steal the contract in 1N (and it is the right spot) by bidding 1N on 6-7 HCP.

[MattieShoe]

I'm curious, if you changed the vulnerabilities to the different combinations, would your answers change? Or would your pass/bid stay the same regardless?