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I think he means the passed hand cannot force with a non-jump that is also not a cue-bid.
'on a passed hand' makes it sound like you cannot force the passed hand.
I would consider an auction like
PASS 1♠
2♦ 3♣
creates a force "on" partner.
So it could be described as forcing on the passed hand.
I would write "no non-jump non-cuebid is forcing by a passed hand"
bidding for dummies
#21
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Posted 2009-August-14, 10:42
Wayne Burrows
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#22
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Posted 2009-August-14, 11:01
No, that is not what I meant.
Any simple bid is not forcing on a passed hand.
In your auction - P - 1♠ - 2♦ - 3♣, I can pass 3♣.
This is basic, old-fashioned bridge. You can agree to the contrary, but as far as I am concerned, a passed hand can pass any non-jump rebid. If the opponents have bid, a cue bid is certainly forcing.
There is no bid that a passed hand can make (other than a cue bid) that is forcing, except for conventional calls.
Any simple bid is not forcing on a passed hand.
In your auction - P - 1♠ - 2♦ - 3♣, I can pass 3♣.
This is basic, old-fashioned bridge. You can agree to the contrary, but as far as I am concerned, a passed hand can pass any non-jump rebid. If the opponents have bid, a cue bid is certainly forcing.
There is no bid that a passed hand can make (other than a cue bid) that is forcing, except for conventional calls.
#23
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Posted 2009-August-14, 11:30
That seems contrary to normal general principles old fashioned or otherwise.
1♠ 2♦
3♣
and
1♣ 1♠
2♥
Are both played as strong and forcing in all standard systems. The fact that partner has passed initially doesn't change that.
I think it is confusing for Beginners and Intermediates to suggest otherwise.
1♠ 2♦
3♣
and
1♣ 1♠
2♥
Are both played as strong and forcing in all standard systems. The fact that partner has passed initially doesn't change that.
I think it is confusing for Beginners and Intermediates to suggest otherwise.
Wayne Burrows
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#24
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Posted 2009-August-14, 11:40
I won't quibble over the reverse of 2♥ being a one-round force, even opposite a passed hand. But the so-called "high-reverse" of 3♣ is not forcing opposite a passed hand.
It is basic old-fashioned bridge that even a beginner should know - non-jump rebids opposite a passed hand are not forcing. And any natural bid made by a passed hand is not forcing.
It is basic old-fashioned bridge that even a beginner should know - non-jump rebids opposite a passed hand are not forcing. And any natural bid made by a passed hand is not forcing.
#25
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Posted 2009-August-14, 11:48
Luckily I am not a beginner since I don't know this.
Neither is it something that I have ever heard expounded.
After
1♠ 2♦
It would be very difficult to explore for 3NT or even possibly other games if 3♣ was not forcing.
Neither is it something that I have ever heard expounded.
After
1♠ 2♦
It would be very difficult to explore for 3NT or even possibly other games if 3♣ was not forcing.
Wayne Burrows
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#26
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Posted 2009-August-14, 11:49
jillybean, on Aug 13 2009, 07:00 PM, said:
P (P) 1♣ (P)
So the auction continues..
P (P) 1♣ (P)
1♦ (P) 2♣ P
2♠ (P) 2N (P)
Do you leave it in 2N?
yes
"Tell me of your home world, Usul"
the Freman, Chani from the move "Dune"
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the Freman, Chani from the move "Dune"
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw
#27
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Posted 2009-August-14, 13:02
ArtK78, on Aug 14 2009, 07:40 PM, said:
I won't quibble over the reverse of 2♥ being a one-round force, even opposite a passed hand. But the so-called "high-reverse" of 3♣ is not forcing opposite a passed hand.
Huh, never ever heard that concept mentioned the 30+ years I've been playing. Thus, you're right when you call it old fashioned!
I really don't get why it should be non-forcing though.
Kind regards,
Harald
Harald
#28
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Posted 2009-August-14, 13:09
Cascade, on Aug 14 2009, 12:48 PM, said:
Luckily I am not a beginner since I don't know this.
Neither is it something that I have ever heard expounded.
After
1♠ 2♦
It would be very difficult to explore for 3NT or even possibly other games if 3♣ was not forcing.
Neither is it something that I have ever heard expounded.
After
1♠ 2♦
It would be very difficult to explore for 3NT or even possibly other games if 3♣ was not forcing.
No, it's not.
If partner passes, there is no game.
Simple enough.
#29
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Posted 2009-August-14, 13:26
Seems like an uncooperative style to me.
Wayne Burrows
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#30
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Posted 2009-August-14, 13:28
ArtK78, on Aug 14 2009, 12:09 PM, said:
Cascade, on Aug 14 2009, 12:48 PM, said:
Luckily I am not a beginner since I don't know this.
Neither is it something that I have ever heard expounded.
After
1♠ 2♦
It would be very difficult to explore for 3NT or even possibly other games if 3♣ was not forcing.
Neither is it something that I have ever heard expounded.
After
1♠ 2♦
It would be very difficult to explore for 3NT or even possibly other games if 3♣ was not forcing.
No, it's not.
If partner passes, there is no game.
Simple enough.
WHOA! Lets stop this nonsense.
3♣ is 100% forcing, responder must take another bid.
I've got plenty of old posts I can dig up on just this auction.
It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.
"You need to play a lot of stuff these days just to deal with the stuff your opponents are playing" DBurn
"You need to play a lot of stuff these days just to deal with the stuff your opponents are playing" DBurn
#31
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Posted 2009-August-14, 15:45
ArtK78, on Aug 14 2009, 03:09 PM, said:
Cascade, on Aug 14 2009, 12:48 PM, said:
Luckily I am not a beginner since I don't know this.
Neither is it something that I have ever heard expounded.
After
1♠ 2♦
It would be very difficult to explore for 3NT or even possibly other games if 3♣ was not forcing.
Neither is it something that I have ever heard expounded.
After
1♠ 2♦
It would be very difficult to explore for 3NT or even possibly other games if 3♣ was not forcing.
No, it's not.
If partner passes, there is no game.
Simple enough.
If you can bid 3♣ with 13 HCP or 16 HCP, how is partner, who is limited to 11 HCP, supposed to know whether to bid on or pass? If you have to force him, you have to go past 3NT, which is likely to be the only makable game.
Whether partner is a passed hand or not, a high reverse has to show extras.