[plaur]

Scoring: MP

1♣-p-1♥-2♠
p-p-3NT-p
p-X-p
lead ♠5

---

We are E/W at matchpoints against a pair where we are heavy underdogs.
3NT X made 9 for 550, when the field was making 480(450) i hearts.
The 2♠ bid got them in the wrong contract, the X reversed the result
Comments please

[655321]

Um, West was obviously very unlucky?

BTW, this question reads a lot like one of AAr's posts.

[TylerE]

How on earth did this make on the spade lead? East forget to lead the ten when he got in with the AH?

[quiddity]

Did West really double 3NT, or is that a mistake in the auction?

[655321]

TylerE, on May 18 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

How on earth did this make on the spade lead? East forget to lead the ten when he got in with the AH?

Declarer can duck 2 rounds of spades and make 10 tricks, but yes, on the bidding declarer might have played West for the ♥A and won the first spade.

This post has been edited by 655321: 2009-May-18, 17:17

[MarkDean]

TylerE, on May 18 2009, 02:52 PM, said:

How on earth did this make on the spade lead? East forget to lead the ten when he got in with the AH?

My guess is that he did not have any more spades when he won the heart ace.

[rogerclee]

TylerE, on May 18 2009, 03:52 PM, said:

How on earth did this make on the spade lead? East forget to lead the ten when he got in with the AH?

LOL

[mtvesuvius]

LOL

[jonottawa]

TylerE, on May 18 2009, 10:52 PM, said:

How on earth did this make on the spade lead? East forget to lead the ten when he got in with the AH?

I don't think E had any left when he got in with the ♥A.

Edit: Sorry, was only half paying attention to what I was doing, someone already clarified this.

[jdonn]

Sometimes I double when I shouldn't, but I think this double was fine (I assume the bidding diagram is wrong and east doubled) and it just didn't work since west had nothing like a 2♠ bid. That's the problem with making terrible bids in hopes of a swing. Even when they "work", they don't work.

[plaur]

Sorry, the bidding diagram was wrong. It was east who doubled 3NT. Declarer ducked two rounds of spades and made sure she won 9.

[vuroth]

Excellent hand to demonstrate the value of the hold-up play.

I would have doubled as east, too. Granted, when I play rubber, I will sometimes open when I have 13 cards, so bidding a weak 2 with any 6 card suit isn't unheard-of. Playing duplicate, though, I don't really think 2♠ can be right.

[hanp]

Vultures.

[quiddity]

jdonn, on May 18 2009, 06:28 PM, said:

Sometimes I double when I shouldn't, but I think this double was fine (I assume the bidding diagram is wrong and east doubled) and it just didn't work since west had nothing like a 2♠ bid. That's the problem with making terrible bids in hopes of a swing. Even when they "work", they don't work.

I had exactly the opposite impression. I don't mind the 2S bid (though it would be better if he had a singleton somewhere). The double is completely terrible. What is East going to do if the opponents run to 4H - look sad and say 'doh'? And if they don't run they're probably making 3nt-x. I don't see any upside to doubling here. And East really should give West some room given the vul and the fact that he's a passed hand.

[vuroth]

quiddity, on May 19 2009, 04:03 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 18 2009, 06:28 PM, said:

Sometimes I double when I shouldn't, but I think this double was fine (I assume the bidding diagram is wrong and east doubled) and it just didn't work since west had nothing like a 2♠ bid. That's the problem with making terrible bids in hopes of a swing. Even when they "work", they don't work.

I had exactly the opposite impression. I don't mind the 2S bid (though it would be better if he had a singleton somewhere). The double is completely terrible. What is East going to do if the opponents run to 4H - look sad and say 'doh'? And if they don't run they're probably making 3nt-x. I don't see any upside to doubling here. And East really should give West some room given the vul and the fact that he's a passed hand.

Everywhere I've ever looked, 2♠ was at least 6 HCP. If opponents are making a 4 level game with only 23 points and no more than a 10 card fit, good for them.

Against B/I opponents, there's no reason for me to think that they aren't up the creek no matter where they play, at this point.

[mikeh]

quiddity, on May 19 2009, 04:03 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 18 2009, 06:28 PM, said:

Sometimes I double when I shouldn't, but I think this double was fine (I assume the bidding diagram is wrong and east doubled) and it just didn't work since west had nothing like a 2♠ bid. That's the problem with making terrible bids in hopes of a swing. Even when they "work", they don't work.

I had exactly the opposite impression. I don't mind the 2S bid (though it would be better if he had a singleton somewhere). The double is completely terrible. What is East going to do if the opponents run to 4H - look sad and say 'doh'? And if they don't run they're probably making 3nt-x. I don't see any upside to doubling here. And East really should give West some room given the vul and the fact that he's a passed hand.

You KNOW that partner has a horrible suit, given that you hold the K10x and declarer jumped to 3N, so he may well not lead spades on this auction, and accordingly you should double... they may not be able to run, they may not feel like running... and if they can and should run you are turning a top or bottom into a roughly average. The weight you give that factor depends on the odds of partner leading a spade without the double plus your estimate of your mp score if he leads something else. My guess is that defending 3N on a non-spade lead won't generate many mps for your side.

BTW, I agree that the 2♠ call is terrible: all too often I hear players, thinking that they are outgunned, defend making bad calls or plays on the basis that they are going to lose if they play it straight, so they mix it up, hoping that they will increase their good boards at the cost of only a few more bad boards.

As a player who, in most of the fields in which I play, is regarded as a 'gun', I am often the beneficiary of this silliness. Why is it silly? The best definition of a bad player is a player who makes bad bids or bad plays. Most non-experts make enough mistakes (as do most experts)... why on earth does anyone think that deliberately making MORE bad bids or plays is likely to help them?

If you want to improve, develop GOOD habits, not bad ones. No expert ever got that way by deliberately playing badly until he or she reached some kind of threshold...every good player I know got that way gradually.

[jdonn]

quiddity, on May 19 2009, 04:03 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 18 2009, 06:28 PM, said:

Sometimes I double when I shouldn't, but I think this double was fine (I assume the bidding diagram is wrong and east doubled) and it just didn't work since west had nothing like a 2♠ bid. That's the problem with making terrible bids in hopes of a swing. Even when they "work", they don't work.

I had exactly the opposite impression. I don't mind the 2S bid...

Sorry I couldn't read any farther. I just couldn't.

[quiddity]

Perhaps. I agree the bid is unsound with the given hand, but 4S is about one singleton short of being a good sacrifice even considering that partner's hand is a balanced piece of garbage.

Change the hand to QJ98xx x xxx xxx. Is 2S still terrible? Doubling 3NT is not any less of a disaster opposite this hand. (edit: removed the T since east has it.)

The point about lead direction is taken, but I think this is a spot where East should just pass. He can tell from his hand that partner is unlikely to have an outside honor. His hand is full of potential defense against 3nt which rates to be worthless against 4H. The opponents could easily be in the wrong spot here even if they make 3nt, and partner could easily lead a spade even without the double.