[awm]

Some of these injuries are caused by steroids. Ever wonder why so many more athletes get injured now than years ago? The human body isn't meant to support certain levels of activity.

Say one pitcher is taking steroids and throwing a hundred miles an hour. Yeah, it's pretty likely he'll rip some arm tendons at some point. Maybe never pitch again. But for a few years he's a stud, making millions of dollars. And when his arm blows out, the team will just find some other kid doing the same thing. Meanwhile, the pitcher who cares about his health and refuses to take the drugs can only throw ninety, and never gets on a major league roster.

So allowing drugs creates this environment where some people take the drugs, shine brightly for a few years, and then their bodies fall apart. And the other athletes can't compete with them without the drugs. Is this what we want?

Baseball fans especially are obsessed with comparing the current greats to the past. But the records don't mean a whole lot if they can be manipulated with drugs and surgeries and various other enhancements.

At some point you have to say that rules are rules. If drugs are okay, surgeries are okay... why can't Manny have a metal bat? Heck, why can't he use that bat to whack the catcher on the head if a teammate is stealing home? Why can't a pitcher get his arm sawed off and replaced by a cannon, so he can fire the ball in there at 500 mph? Where does it stop?

Players have to be able to eat. Food has vitamins. Tough luck. The idea is that these players are people who are supremely talented and have worked really hard to be the best at what they do. But otherwise, they're just regular human beings. They're not supposed to be some sort of cyborgs taking bizarre nutrient cocktails and brimming with chemicals no normal human has in their system.

[mike777]

"They're not supposed to be some sort of cyborgs"


I do not know if this has anything to do with star trek but I do agree that ultimately this is the real issue facing sports including bridge.

My guess is the issue is fated to be a new definition of what a regular human being means.


"But otherwise, they're just regular human beings. They're not supposed to be some sort of cyborgs taking bizarre nutrient cocktails and brimming with chemicals no normal human has in their system."


"no normal human has in their system.""


I think this phrase really sums it up what is normal and how is that definition changing?

[Mbodell]

Reporting suggests it wasn't pot. Manny wasn't banned for a positive test of a performance enhancing drug and also wasn't banned under the section of the collective bargaining agreement that covers recreational drugs. He was banned under the other category. The only other player banned under the other category was caught taking human growth hormone. Early reporting is that Manny was using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG). That is a fertility drug, which based on early reporting is most often taken by women but can be taken by men. In men it helps the cells that produce intertesticular testosterone. The drug however is also frequently used by steroid users to restore their normal testosterone function after they finish using the steroids (because the body shuts down testosterone function if someone is ingesting steroids as part of a negative feedback loop).

[TimG]

awm, on May 7 2009, 04:32 PM, said:

And the teams have doctors who are obviously experts on this, and who he could've consulted with.

It's quite possible that he took the drug or got the prescription during the off-season when he was not on any team's payroll. Of course that would not have prevented him from getting the needed answers from the other sources listed.

[blackshoe]

Mbodell, on May 7 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

Reporting suggests it wasn't pot. Manny wasn't banned for a positive test of a performance enhancing drug and also wasn't banned under the section of the collective bargaining agreement that covers recreational drugs. He was banned under the other category. The only other player banned under the other category was caught taking human growth hormone. Early reporting is that Manny was using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG). That is a fertility drug, which based on early reporting is most often taken by women but can be taken by men. In men it helps the cells that produce intertesticular testosterone. The drug however is also frequently used by steroid users to restore their normal testosterone function after they finish using the steroids (because the body shuts down testosterone function if someone is ingesting steroids as part of a negative feedback loop).

Based on this, it seems probable that Manny was banned not for using steroids, but for using something else that steroid users often use.

Did anyone ask him or his doctor why the doctor prescribed this drug?

[awm]

My guess is... Manny has been trying to get pregnant. And it hasn't been working out. So he got a doctor to prescribe something...

Just another case of "Manny being Manny"?

[luke warm]

mike777, on May 7 2009, 05:09 PM, said:

luke warm, on May 7 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

i can (barely) understand banning certain performance enhancing substances on the grounds that prolonged use has been proved to be harmful... if this was pot, prescribed or not, that doesn't fall in that category to me... pot is about as far from performance enhancing as a drug can get

Jimmy most if not all drugs can be proved to be harmful in a medical sense of the word.

As for Pot, I am not a doctor but I would think very long repeated use of smoking Pot, drawing smoke into my lungs, could in theory cause some harm to my body.

It would be interesting to x-ray the lungs of long-term pot smokers compared to non-smokers.

i never said it wasn't harmful, everything is harmful to lesser or greater degrees... i said it wasn't performance enhancing

[helene_t]

blackshoe, on May 7 2009, 11:26 PM, said:

Not only are steroids generally legal in the US, they are prescribed in some cases, as I just found out today.

Right. I used to take one. Steroids are many things, not all are of the kind that make muscles grow.

[chicken]

as far as i know they got him on a secondary drug, did they? it was HCG a female fertility hormon which gets the male testosteron production back to selfsufficient work after a steroid cycle. wow, what a doctor to make this prescription plausible to poor many.

[Phil]

This started as an interesting thread, but has devolved into rants about stupid the drug-testing policy is.

Do we really need to reiterate how arrogant professional sports players are if they think they can cheat and not get caught?

Manny is just another moron in the parade.

[blackshoe]

If Manny took steroids prohibited by the sport's regulations, I agree Phil. But if the allegation that he did so is not based on hard evidence that he did so, but rather on circumstantial evidence that he took some other drug which is often associated with steroid use, but is also prescribed for other reasons, and those making the allegation did not bother to confirm with Manny or his doctor (and probably both) the reason for the prescription, then it is those making the allegation who are the morons.

[Phil]

blackshoe, on May 8 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

If Manny took steroids prohibited by the sport's regulations, I agree Phil. But if the allegation that he did so is not based on hard evidence that he did so, but rather on circumstantial evidence that he took some other drug which is often associated with steroid use, but is also prescribed for other reasons, and those making the allegation did not bother to confirm with Manny or his doctor (and probably both) the reason for the prescription, then it is those making the allegation who are the morons.

That's fine, but do you really think MLB is going to ban their premier player for 1/3 of the season based on some non-banned drug, and "didn't" bother to confirm with anyone, AND, Manny isn't appealing this?

He's as guilty as his dreadlocks are long.

[jdonn]

blackshoe, on May 8 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

If Manny took steroids prohibited by the sport's regulations, I agree Phil. But if the allegation that he did so is not based on hard evidence that he did so, but rather on circumstantial evidence that he took some other drug which is often associated with steroid use, but is also prescribed for other reasons, and those making the allegation did not bother to confirm with Manny or his doctor (and probably both) the reason for the prescription, then it is those making the allegation who are the morons.

If this other drug is not allowed then who cares why it was prescribed? It is Manny's job to know what is banned and not take anything that is, even if a doctor prescribed it. When a doctor writes me a prescription I NEVER take it without going online and educating myself about it first. Just imagine how much more important that would be if my job banned many otherwise-legal drugs and I was subjected to frequent random drug tests.

The earlier analogy someone made is very apt, that if your lawyer advises you to break the law then you are still responsible if you do so. "I trusted the expert" is not a valid defense.

[blackshoe]

Phil, on May 8 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

That's fine, but do you really think MLB is going to ban their premier player for 1/3 of the season based on some non-banned drug, and "didn't" bother to confirm with anyone, AND, Manny isn't appealing this?

He's as guilty as his dreadlocks are long.

Well, if we were jurors in a trial, I would suggest to you that making assumptions not in evidence is not in the purview of a juror. If you insist on making those assumptions anyway, I guess we'll have a hung jury.

As for his dreadlocks, they're irrelevant.

[blackshoe]

jdonn, on May 8 2009, 11:15 AM, said:

If this other drug is not allowed then who cares why it was prescribed?

[/bIs[/b] this other drug prohibited? If so, why? It doesn't sound to me like it's "performance enhancing", except maybe in the bedroom, and that's not only irrelevant to the sport, it's none of the sport's business. So if the sport's bosses prohibit the drug for "guilt by association", again it's they who are the morons.

[barmar]

While leagues often use "purity of the game" and "leveling the playing field" as explanations for anti-doping regulations, it's clear to me that these are not the true reasons. Purity of the game seems unlikely because of the selective nature of the bans. And the playing field is just as level if everyone takes drugs.

No, I think it's obvious that it's an issue of image. Sports stars are expected to be role models. The Olympics were created because athletic prowess is considered to be a mark of human achievement. Children treat these people as heroes, and they emulate them.

Consider the brouhaha that arose last year when the picture of Michael Phelps smoking pot got out. It wasn't because pot is a performance-enhancing drug (in fact, it probably reduces performance), but because he let his fans down. He was no longer someone parents could tell their kids to look up to; despite still being an exceptional athlete, he now had this moral blemish.

[Phil]

blackshoe, on May 8 2009, 11:38 AM, said:

Phil, on May 8 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

That's fine, but do you really think MLB is going to ban their premier player for 1/3 of the season based on some non-banned drug, and "didn't" bother to confirm with anyone, AND, Manny isn't appealing this?

He's as guilty as his dreadlocks are long.

Well, if we were jurors in a trial, I would suggest to you that making assumptions not in evidence is not in the purview of a juror. If you insist on making those assumptions anyway, I guess we'll have a hung jury.

As for his dreadlocks, they're irrelevant.

Nope, we aren't attorneys. We can only surmise what is going on at MLB central.

Maybe some of us are cynical about these things, but doesn't your gut tell you that he got caught?

[jdonn]

blackshoe, on May 8 2009, 11:42 AM, said:

jdonn, on May 8 2009, 11:15 AM, said:

If this other drug is not allowed then who cares why it was prescribed?

Is this other drug prohibited? If so, why? It doesn't sound to me like it's "performance enhancing", except maybe in the bedroom, and that's not only irrelevant to the sport, it's none of the sport's business. So if the sport's bosses prohibit the drug for "guilt by association", again it's they who are the morons.

Of course it is, they suspended him for using it. What in the world makes you think it's not?

[Lobowolf]

blackshoe, on May 8 2009, 11:38 AM, said:

Phil, on May 8 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

That's fine, but do you really think MLB is going to ban their premier player for 1/3 of the season based on some non-banned drug, and "didn't" bother to confirm with anyone, AND, Manny isn't appealing this?

He's as guilty as his dreadlocks are long.

Well, if we were jurors in a trial, I would suggest to you that making assumptions not in evidence is not in the purview of a juror. If you insist on making those assumptions anyway, I guess we'll have a hung jury.

As for his dreadlocks, they're irrelevant.

If we were jurors, we'd be privy to more evidence and have to make fewer assumptions. As we're not, it seems reasonable to draw rational inferences.

As an aside...

"You may consider whether a party failed to explain or deny some unfavorable evidence. Failure to explain or to deny unfavorable evidence may suggest that the evidence is true."
-California Civil Jury Instruction (CACI) #205.

[mike777]

It is pretty dumb to allow many performance enhancing drugs/operations but disallow others. I can only hope Congress would ban sports from denying people jobs or millions for taking medicine given by a doctor. Employees need to be protected. Clearly the vast majority of fans do not care enough to stop paying.

As has been stated often, older players take steriods and this drug for a medical reason. To heal and recover faster either from injury or after a long season of wear and tear. This drug is used often after steriod type drugs have been used to restart testerone production. That is a medical reason. If you pass stupid laws, do not be shocked when people disrespect them as it seems hundreds and hundreds of players do.

In preventive medicine many of us take drugs to try and stop a disease or illness before we get it, why cannot sport players try and take legal drugs to prevent medical sport issues before they happen? Example if drug xyz may help a pitcher from blowing out his arm why disallow it?

IMO if the drug is legal over the counter or legal if given by legal ethical prescription, it should be ok to use in sports. If a drug in general is illegal or unethicaly prescribed for a patient ban it and throw the doc in jail.

btw on 20-20 tonight there is a highly controversial segment on the use and side effects of steriods.