[Winstonm]

Quote

sometimes it does appear impossible to reason with you, winston, but i'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with you furthering any agenda... i'm sure you'd say you have no agenda, you're just a seeker of the truth

It is ironic you brought this up as I was musing today that you might respond in just this fashion - the musing was brought about by a conversation I had last night with my neocon brother Darth Cheney.

As I have found with my brother - unless I am willing to accept his worldview and his premises, we have nothing to talk about. You and he are the same in this regard: the only thing either of you is interested in is defending your ideological beliefs. The reason it seems difficult to reason with me is that I flatly reject your premises.

My brother and I end up talking about fishing a lot. I guess that makes me impossible to reason with. But I was the one willing to discuss how to improve healthcare coverage with whatever method is pragmatically best - and that includes, but is not limited to, socialized medicine. My brother recited the wingnut claim that no one is turned away in the U.S. and that "You don't want the government running healthcare."

And, of course, to this enlightened discussion I could only add: How about those trout?

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on Apr 30 2009, 06:12 PM, said:

Quote

sometimes it does appear impossible to reason with you, winston, but i'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with you furthering any agenda... i'm sure you'd say you have no agenda, you're just a seeker of the truth

It is ironic you brought this up as I was musing today that you might respond in just this fashion - the musing was brought about by a conversation I had last night with my neocon brother Darth Cheney.

As I have found with my brother - unless I am willing to accept his worldview and his premises, we have nothing to talk about. You and he are the same in this regard: the only thing either of you is interested in is defending your ideological beliefs. The reason it seems difficult to reason with me is that I flatly reject your premises.

My brother and I end up talking about fishing a lot. I guess that makes me impossible to reason with. But I was the one willing to discuss how to improve healthcare coverage with whatever method is pragmatically best - and that includes, but is not limited to, socialized medicine. My brother recited the wingnut claim that no one is turned away in the U.S. and that "You don't want the government running healthcare."

And, of course, to this enlightened discussion I could only add: How about those trout?

hmm.. a neocon and a conspiracy nut... must make for a fun reunion

[Lobowolf]

Winstonm, on Apr 30 2009, 06:12 PM, said:

Quote

My brother recited the wingnut claim that no one is turned away in the U.S. 

Wingy as this may sound, sometimes you have to drop it into a discussion with those other wingnuts who try to equate "health insurance" with "health care" (e.g. to make it sound as if the X number of people without insurance are getting no health care), (who also tend to equate "people living in America" with "Americans" (e.g. to inflate the number of Americans who don't have health insurance)).

Tens of billions are spent in healthcare annually on people with no health insurance. This may be a strong premise in support of insuring more people - ounces of prevention and pounds of cure, and all that. But it's just as wingy (granted, we're on the other wing now) to go from, say, "45 million people (say, 30 million of whom are American) living in the USA without health insurance" to "45 million Americans receiving no health care."

This is not to say that the ol' health insurance = healthcare trick has been tried in this thread, but I've seen it done more than once or twice.

Now, you may get riled up and say, "Well, hell, 30 million Americans without health insurance is a HUGE number and way too damned big, even if it isn't 40 (or 45!!!!)"

To which I'd reply that yes, it is. But that just strikes me as all the more reason not to fudge the numbers.

[Winstonm]

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Wingy as this may sound, sometimes you have to drop it into a discussion with those other wingnuts who try to equate "health insurance" with "health care

Although healthcare and health insurance are not synonymous, there is a strong enough correlation to make them close cousins. Probabaly the best way to discuss this is to talk about the health delivery methods of the U.S. Anyone who believes there is equality of treatment is kidding himself, and anyone who believes everyone has access has never worked a 12-hour shift in an emergency room - or if you did your definition of access is much different than mine.

The only thing that stirred the conversation toward healthcare at all was my brother's attack on Obama and how Obama is a "Marxist". (This from a retired U.S. Army Colonel, which doesn't make me real confident in the direction of the Pentagon's ambitions.)

[Winstonm]

luke warm, on Apr 30 2009, 07:21 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Apr 30 2009, 06:12 PM, said:

Quote

sometimes it does appear impossible to reason with you, winston, but i'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with you furthering any agenda... i'm sure you'd say you have no agenda, you're just a seeker of the truth

It is ironic you brought this up as I was musing today that you might respond in just this fashion - the musing was brought about by a conversation I had last night with my neocon brother Darth Cheney.

As I have found with my brother - unless I am willing to accept his worldview and his premises, we have nothing to talk about. You and he are the same in this regard: the only thing either of you is interested in is defending your ideological beliefs. The reason it seems difficult to reason with me is that I flatly reject your premises.

My brother and I end up talking about fishing a lot. I guess that makes me impossible to reason with. But I was the one willing to discuss how to improve healthcare coverage with whatever method is pragmatically best - and that includes, but is not limited to, socialized medicine. My brother recited the wingnut claim that no one is turned away in the U.S. and that "You don't want the government running healthcare."

And, of course, to this enlightened discussion I could only add: How about those trout?

hmm.. a neocon and a conspiracy nut... must make for a fun reunion

What an enlightening discussion. Do much trolling?

[luke warm]

how is that trolling and this

Winstonm, on Apr 29 2009, 07:52 PM, said:

It is impossible to reason with someone who is only interested in furthering his own ideological beliefs - truth is not part of that agenda unless it is accidental.

not?

[PassedOut]

luke warm, on Apr 30 2009, 12:56 PM, said:

i don't think man has caused global warming and i don't think man can cool the globe...

In an earlier discussion of Pascal's wager, you claimed the ability to hold a belief based on personal advantage. Could that ability be in effect here too?

[luke warm]

PassedOut, on May 1 2009, 08:54 AM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 30 2009, 12:56 PM, said:

i don't think man has caused global warming and i don't think man can cool the globe...

In an earlier discussion of Pascal's wager, you claimed the ability to hold a belief based on personal advantage. Could that ability be in effect here too?

i don't know... anyway, what i wrote is just my opinion, yours may vary