[Hanoi5]

Scoring: MP

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At my table East opened 2NT. The problem was at another table where the bidding went:

Pass 1♦
1♥     3♦
Pass

Who's at fault for not reaching at least a game? 6♦ is probably 90% or a bit more, but harder to get to, I think.

What was the worst call 1♦ or Pass after 3♦?

[helene_t]

West should open 2♣ and rebid 2NT. This does not show the diamond length but it does show the strength of the hand. Opening 2♣ and rebidding 3♦ is a reasonable alternative.

The 3♦ rebid following a 1♦ opening shows appr. 16-17 points. The hand is way too strong for that.

Easts final pass is 100% normal.

[Hanoi5]

They play that 3♦ as 17+.

[helene_t]

Hanoi5, on Jan 29 2009, 03:06 PM, said:

They play that 3♦ as 17+.

It must be forcing then. Is it a game force or could they still stop in 4♦ if they have 17+5 points?

I have never heard about such a system.

[Hanoi5]

Probably 'cause I'm the creator.

[Fluffy]

this seems obvious, if someone passed a forcing bid he is to blame. If 3♦ was not forcing then obviously the wrong bid is 3♦.

If there was no agreement on the matter this is just a matter of not talking enough before playing.

[TylerE]

Both 50% imo, for playing such a silly system.

[kenrexford]

If 3♦ is forcing (uh...), then how can Responder have any argument?

If 3♦ is not forcing, then how can Opener have any argument?

BTW -- ditto 2♣...2NT. Close to 2♣...2♥(Kokish), IMO.

[Simplicity]

Ditto the rest looks like one side of the table made a serious basic error.

I will add that 6♦ is not 90%, you need diamonds 3-2 or the stiff J. Still thats plenty to make it a good slam, though rather difficult to bid playing standard methods.

[jdonn]

Fluffy, on Jan 29 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

this seems obvious, if someone passed a forcing bid he is to blame. If 3♦ was not forcing then obviously the wrong bid is 3♦.

kenrexford, on Jan 29 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

If 3♦ is forcing (uh...), then how can Responder have any argument?

If 3♦ is not forcing, then how can Opener have any argument?

I completely agree!

90% for 6♦ seems like an overbid (3-2 diamonds or singleton jack or 4-1 with 3+ clubs with 4 diamonds). It's certainly good enough to be in though, probably about 80% I would estimate (don't feel like calculating although doing so wouldn't be difficult.)

[mtvesuvius]

With the West hand this is an easy 2♣ then 2NT imo. There is no excuse for opening 1♦, and East's pass is perfectly normal, assuming 3♦ is NF 16-17. The real person to blame is whoever designed a system where someone rebids 3♦ with 22 HCP. It's tough to get to 6♦, however at least 3NT is good enough.

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Jan 29 2009, 03:20 PM, said:

90% for 6♦ seems like an overbid (3-2 diamonds or singleton jack or 4-1 with 3+ clubs with 4 diamonds).

If diamonds are 4-1, then 3+ clubs with 4 diamonds is what you need to allow you to make 5D on a major suit lead, not 6.

[jdonn]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 29 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 29 2009, 03:20 PM, said:

90% for 6♦ seems like an overbid (3-2 diamonds or singleton jack or 4-1 with 3+ clubs with 4 diamonds).

If diamonds are 4-1, then 3+ clubs with 4 diamonds is what you need to allow you to make 5D on a major suit lead, not 6.

Of course you are quite correct. Brain fart.
So 90% is way off, it's more like 70%.

[FrancesHinden]

...and thinking back to the questions about overtricks, if opener's majors were reversed (Ax opposite xx and KQ opposite xxxxx), would you rather be in 3NT or 5D at imps?

[H_KARLUK]

2♣            2♦* waiting relay bid
3♦ trumps!   etc fine with me.

I would like to try my chance in slam diamonds. Just need kindly trumps vs any lead.
If I remember correct :
Opps hold   Division   Probability
 5cards        3-2         68%
                    4-1        28%
                    5-0          4%

Also when opps have    Probability of an honour card being
5 cards                          Singleton  Doubleton   Trebleton  
                                         6%              27%           41%
So ♦ knave four times somewhere might be maximum 26% (Sorry, I don't remember 5 times with a honour card %)
I have a parking place for ♥ loser to last ♣ at hand, then dummy only concedes a ♠

[peachy]

I would have opened the given hand either 2NT, or 2C with a 2NT rebid. For a 2C with a 3D rebid, the hand is too weak, but who knows what would work best. All in all, it is too strong for a 1D and a rebid 3D. I think it would be a good agreement that after 1m-1whatever-3m or 1m-1M-3m, responder with an ace should not pass without a compelling reason to pass.