[H_KARLUK]

P    P    1♣  P
1♠   P   2♦   P
3♦   P    ?

Scoring: MP

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Could you please comment your reason ?

Thanks in advance for all inputs.

Sincerely,
Hamdi

This post has been edited by H_KARLUK: 2009-January-27, 17:16

[jdonn]

Permanent responses to your posts, it seems: I disagree with the prior bidding. I start a different way with a balanced 15-17.

[Lobowolf]

I prefer 1NT as well; having gotten to this point, though, I'm as balanced (and pretty much as minimum) as I can be for the prior auction, I have a stopper in the unbid suit, and I'm in a forcing auction. I'll bid 3NT and be glad partner's first bid wasn't 1♥.

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Jan 27 2009, 11:39 PM, said:

I disagree with the prior bidding. I start a different way with a balanced 15-17.

LOL

[H_KARLUK]

Rehi all,

I don't know why Jdonn thought to start different way with a balanced 15-17. I evaluate balanceds as 4432-4333 and somehow nice 2353 (No 5 cards M suit and a protected doubleton). What's wrong not to open 1N while there were natural reverse rebid?

I am sorry but I see 3N bidders likely point missers. For Heaven's sake why passed partner's trump support should be forcing ? I am merely surprised i found myself in minority as a pass bidder.

With my full respect
Sincerely
Hamdi

[mtvesuvius]

H_KARLUK, on Jan 27 2009, 07:49 PM, said:

I am sorry but I see 3N bidders likely point missers. For Heaven's sake why passed partner's rebid should be forcing ? I am merely surprised i found myself in minority as a pass bidder.

I beleive that it is forcing also. The reason being that partner could have bid 2NT Lehbensohl. Since partner failed to do this, we can make a positive assumtion and bid 3NT, which btw is what I bid also. Without this agreement this situation is much more trivial... However I still feel that 3NT will often be a winner. Imo this is a 15-17 1NT opener, this will prevent this problem, especially if you have not discussed or unsure if you are playing Lehbensohl... Hope this helps .

[H_KARLUK]

I am pretty sure given auction a raise of a minor suit reverse should be NF. Partner cld bid 2 ♥ followed by 3 ♦. Do you really see a game opposite 6-7 HCP and 5 ♠ and 4♦?

That's why i liked Pass.

[andy_h]

When partner's a passed hand I am less inclined to bother showing my diamonds. I would have opened 1C and rebid 2NT.

[Lobowolf]

H_KARLUK, on Jan 27 2009, 08:36 PM, said:

I am pretty sure given auction a raise of a minor suit reverse should be NF. Partner cld bid 2 ♥ followed by 3 ♦. Do you really see a game opposite 6-7 HCP and 5 ♠ and 4♦?

That's why i liked Pass.

The issue isn't whether the 3NT bidders see game opposite a 6-7 count, but what the 3♦ bid shows. Around here, the standard treatment is that it's a forcing bid. With the 6-7 pount hand you're describing, responder wouldn't raise to 3♦ directly.

I imagine (hope) this is a matter less of judgment and more of local standard methods.

[H_KARLUK]

Sorry, opposite a passed partner your ambitions are limited or not at best? Does distribution and th placing of honours really cry out to reach a game?
To me 2NT rebid is interesting. And I don't know why one bad bid deserves a second overbid. Lobo's idea "With the 6-7 pount hand you're describing, responder wouldn't raise to 3♦ directly."
Denying 5 cards ♠ and directly raise to 3 ♦ while he had 5♠ and 4♦ with 6-7 HCP? I think i am living a language barrier.

[Echognome]

H_KARLUK, on Jan 27 2009, 05:59 PM, said:

Sorry, opposite a passed partner your ambitions are limited or not at best? Does distribution and th placing of honours really cry out to reach a game?
To me 2NT rebid is interesting. And I don't know why one bad bid deserves a second overbid. Lobo's idea "With the 6-7 pount hand you're describing, responder wouldn't raise to 3♦ directly."
Denying 5 cards ♠ and directly raise to 3 ♦ while he had 5♠ and 4♦ with 6-7 HCP? I think i am living a language barrier.

I think the problem is a disagreement in what you think is the "standard method". I assume for you that if partner had a game forcing hand after your reverse, he would bid 2♥ as fourth suit forcing to game, whereas for others, 2♥ would show something else.

Here is my understanding of how most people play this sequence after the auction:

P - 1♣;
1♠ - 2♦;
?

Alternative 1 - Lebensohl
2♥ = Artificial or natural, but forcing
2♠ = Natural forcing
2NT = Puppet to 3♣, likely a sign-off
3X = Natural and forcing

Alternative 2 - Ingberman (although some may argue a different name)
2♥ = Puppet to 2♠, likely a sign-off
2♠+ = Natural and forcing to game

Alternative 3 - Naturalish
2♥ = Artificial, GF
2♠+ = Natural, non forcing

I'm sure there are many, many different treatments. I'm not even sure people will agree with my characterization. But using different alternatives will lead you to different answers to what is the best way to continue.

[Lobowolf]

In BWS everything (including 3♦) other than 2♠ (rebid of responder's suit) or 2 ♥ (cheaper of 4th suit or 2NT) is game forcing.

[jdonn]

H_KARLUK, on Jan 27 2009, 07:49 PM, said:

I don't know why Jdonn thought to start different way with a balanced 15-17. I evaluate balanceds as 4432-4333 and somehow nice 2353 (No 5 cards M suit and a protected doubleton). What's wrong not to open 1N while there were natural reverse rebid?

You describe your hand very well in one shot. You hide your shape from eager defenders. You stop at a lower level when partner is weak. You protect your honors by making yourself the almost certain declarer. You preempt your LHO who might have a long major. And perhaps the best reason of all: you avoid reverse auctions which are confusing, lead to bidding misunderstandings, and end up posted on bbo forums asking everyone what to do, and you get into 1NT auctions which are very easy!

H_KARLUK, on Jan 27 2009, 08:59 PM, said:

I think i am living a language barrier.

You could help alleviate that problem by using the quote function for other peoples' posts, and not using the italics function for your posts.

Anyway I don't think a language barrier is the problem, unless you are referring to the language of standard bidding after reverses, where I think you need a refresher course.

[JLOL]

Opening 1N is LOL

[H_KARLUK]

I think Mr. Jdonn has missed the point. But indeed no big deal. Seems in his book reverse definition is quite different.

1Nt only describes 15-17. And if opposition have cards worths to lead noone can stop. Does he meant reverse bids describe shape and range irrelevant?

Say Mr. Jdonn opened and playing 1-2-3 NT. ♠ Ace with his righty and ♥ Q lead back. Is he sure will protect his honours on given hand?

Back to bidding misunderstandings. For heaven's sake, i forgot when reverse bids invented. I think it is designed long years ago. It describes shape and range. No matter solo like 1N. That's th simple difference. It is hard to find single bids everytime telling everything.

I assume Mr. Jdonn is a grown up one and my piece of advice for him is to stop demagogy. But if he still needs to show more emotional appeal or personal attacks and false dilemma sorry I cannot help anymore.

I still defend PASS is a MUST

[JLOL]

Also this auction is fine, just pass 3D now you have a minimum reverse.

[mike777]

Given this is expert forum I agree lol..,,, 1nt...if non expert forum great post.

[the hog]

Obvious 1NT opening. 3D is forcing of course, as with a poor hand responder would use 2NT blackout - forcing 3C from opener. Do not understand any of Hamdi's bidding.

[H_KARLUK]

The_Hog, on Jan 28 2009, 05:46 AM, said:

Obvious 1NT opening. 3D is forcing of course, as with a poor hand responder would use 2NT blackout - forcing 3C from opener. Do not understand any of Hamdi's bidding.

Well, I confess. I am not surprised. If my memory does not deceive me Mr. The_Hog also understood "highly different" when i give "boom boom boom 2008 ends" tournament name for forum members. He was the sole dissenter about tournament name. Anyone wonders th story may go back checking my Dec08 posts.

Improvement, at least today it is fixed that we are never been in same wavelength with him about any bridge issues.

[jdonn]

H_KARLUK, on Jan 27 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

I assume Mr. Jdonn is a grown up one and my piece of advice for him is to stop demagogy. But if he still needs to show more emotional appeal or personal attacks and false dilemma sorry I cannot help anymore.

Are you kidding? All you do is insult anyone who disagrees with any answer you want, then complain about how terrible we all are. Just look at every post you have made in this thread. My last post was almost entirely bridge related, and specifically answered a question that you asked. You asked what's wrong with not opening 1NT, I gave bridge reasons. If that upsets you, then get used to being upset.

And yes, if the ace of spades is on my right, and the queen jack of hearts are on my right, and the ace of hearts is on my left, and the opponents lead double dummy, and they can't make anything more valuable than whatever small penalty they get (assuming they set me in any case), then 1NT may not work out best. I don't recall saying it was a 100% action! I'll keep bidding 1NT - 3NT, or 1NT - P, and you keep bidding 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♦ - 3♦, and then having misunderstandings about whether it's forcing or not, and we will see who comes out ahead.