[cgull]

I love to play in tournys. BUT, I spend more time waiting than playing by
actual measure.

Fifteen minutes is more than enough time to play two hands. I don't know what
players do for any more time.

I feel that the directors have created this timing monster by waiting for the slow
players. I think if you moved them on, and the lost the hand, it wouldn't take
very long for them to be more time sensitive.

You are, in essence, holding up a lot of people for one or two. That is not right.

If a pair cannot complete the hands in the alloted time, then perhhaps they are
not ready to play in a tourny. But, I feel, moving them along, will cure the
problem in short order.

Cgull

[spwdo]

hi,


mmmmmmmm, do you actually think we woud hold up 400 plaers for one freaquent slowplayer?

1. sometimes we need to put in subs
2.sometimes several are half connected
3.sometimes their is a diifilcult baord
4. when u host as frequent as me u know how many are behind(we got actually numbers of that and the tablenumbers)
5.15 minutes shoud be enough BUT we need to adjust unfinished baords(so we need an xtra minute at least)
6. we actually get calls for non-alert, non explanations, td"finess didnt work" td"why 27% we made 3nt".(this all takes time to handle)
7. really if u want my honest opinion, sorry but dont join if u think that all cant play your paste and that all have your fast connection
big 8. we are not alone in this world
9. if i or any td out there coud manage 10boards/75 minutes without huge problems(massive numbers of unfinished baords, skipped boards) we would do it(maybe we ourselves coud play a hand more a day, would be nice)
10. we tds rather host less time if that woud be possible
11.frequent slowplayers are blacklisted
12. BELIEVE ME DEAR FIEND THAT WE DONATE TIME/EFFORTS FOR OTHERS SO A THANK YOU TDS IS ALWAYS THE RIGHT THING
13.if u dont like the tournament format(8 minutes /baord) read tournament rules or info, if not your thing dont sign up
14.sorry again if i sound to hars but your post did sound the same to me and ALL my collagues i think that make efforts/donate time/study/work VERY HARD IN THIER FREE TIME to provide tournaments


thank you
team spwdo

[spwdo]

cgull, on Apr 2 2004, 05:07 AM, said:

I love to play in tournys. BUT, I spend more time waiting than playing by
actual measure.

Fifteen minutes is more than enough time to play two hands. I don't know what
players do for any more time.

I feel that the directors have created this timing monster by waiting for the slow
players. I think if you moved them on, and the lost the hand, it wouldn't take
very long for them to be more time sensitive.

You are, in essence, holding up a lot of people for one or two. That is not right.

If a pair cannot complete the hands in the alloted time, then perhhaps they are
not ready to play in a tourny. But, I feel, moving them along, will cure the
problem in short order.

Cgull

and another thing, u sound u have all the answers, feel free to help me out in any tounrey, so for one time , instead of annoiying yourself with waiting, experience yourslef what tdiying is like , untill that time maybe u posting about the moster we craete and us beeing not right doesnt seem right becuase u dont know what u are talking about, so instead of critising and beeing unfair to us(gentil expression, remember timing monster u used ) try it for yourslef and after i would be happy to readress all your sorry and i dint know , and pffff this is really work(u must know i for one trained a lot of tds) to all my friends

Another thing, i see here on bbo many onedays flies that apply /get approval to host. Do you thing i can name 30 tds that last? no i cant and believe, im online very much time, i see /hear very much, i train/teach/ help new tds but most dont last, and if u ask me why, becuase out lives are made miserably too often because ampoung others a thread like this

i canceled a tourney today, 51 messages basicully saying i undertsand and respect and love u tourneys keep up the good work , thx for all.

one called me crazy to cancel, NO WHY WOUD I START SOMETING AND PULL THE PLUG IN BAORD 10 OF 12 IF THIER WASNT A PROBLEM???????????

so maybe right question for me is "do u agree with the 51" or with the other "side, small but always complaining " that cristise me after running somany tourneys for others,i sometimes see more reasons to blacklist people like that the the poeple not as rich(or imposisble to get a faster connection) as u and having to work with a lot less



marc, shocked from the start of this thread

[uday]

In the early days of tourneys, I used to run a lot of Ts. these days, i dont, except very occasionally in the "dark hour" ( about 1AM EST).

Unclocked tourneys are supposedly the answer for the impatient player. But even though i've tried to improve the matching , it is not quite perfect. Still, unclocked pair events do minimize the waiting.

Some TDs like Spwdo are willing to adjust; others are not, and their Ts move faster. Try looking at the coalition tourneys to see if you can find a speedball.

www.bridgebase.com/tourneyschedule
or
Login to bbo, then EXPLORE/Tools/Unofficial....

[csdenmark]

In clocked tourneys you will often see switch of opps. for every board or maybe every 2 boards. This is a try to spread the waiting time for the quick players hiding the facts that the speed of play is very different for all the pairs. In clocked tourneys you will often see a set up for 7 minutes per board.

The reality is the quick players normally needs 4-5 minutes per board and nothing more. They will therefore have a waiting time for 2-3 minutes per board.

In unclocked events quick players normally have no real waiting time at all. Those suffering disconnections or other kind of problems will have some more waiting time at the end but in a 16 board set up it is 8 minutes per board at an average. That means the same as clocked for the slower ones but for the faster ones they can finish 40% quicker.

This is flexibility and fairness to all but rarely used!

[spwdo]

hi,


claus claus claus,


how can u explain that time showed minus 12 minutes in a tourney today, think all read your prefernces on uncloked events but there is no need to clash with reality, i know several fast players that dont play uncloked cause all it needs is ONE SLOWPLAYER A TABLE TO CAUSE SEVERE WAIT, further u need several other tables to have finisched before u can change , minus 12 minutes claus , waiting waiting waiting waiting, they were done with 2 minutes to go, so they waited 14 minutes before they coud change, disaster nothing more , nothing less, but since u are the most fortunate td around here, u never will know it,.are there 2 difereant realitys, ours and yours?

[csdenmark]

No Marc - It is so that clocked tourneys are waiting tourneys. Waiting for the quick ones each round. You divide(hide) the waiting with many switches of opps. Try to create a 16 boards events with 7 minutes each and 4 boards per switch. Then you will face the reality.

uday, on Apr 4 2004, 02:39 PM, said:

Unclocked tourneys are supposedly the answer for the impatient player. But even though i've tried to improve the matching , it is not quite perfect. Still, unclocked pair events do minimize the waiting.

16 boards - approx 2 hours 8 minutes per board.

1/3 will end after 80-90 minutes
50% will end after 100-110
Last 20% will end around 120-130 minutes

[spwdo]

hi,

yes claus all it needs is a slowplayer in last baord of a round to cause delay, further delay is caused when u have to wait for others to finisch so u actually can move.So even what quote u refer to i dont care, u help a small% of lucky players that are lucky because they play against as fast as themselves opps, but several also fast players are caught/suprissed from slow opps , is it fair to please a couple/punish others. No it isnt, main reason why when u apply for TD advice is to run clocked tourneys, instead of the td and players agony an unclocked event can be.


u suggest me a tourney format, ok i will u as cotd. After that U do 16 baords one round unclocked , and when u done the day after ill say well done td.

dont try to convince me of things were i know just plain and simple more about (i host at least 2 tourneys a day open for the public and not some private club where all play the same system where countless calls are avoided simple for that reason)


the group u referring finisching first are the lucky ones, i dont care for statitics, i say and say again all it needs is a slow player at at table one round and u drop to second group and shame o shame a second slow one will drop u in group three and all clocked tourneys are finisched before unclocked and with finisched i mean all tables are finisched, if u want to play speedball, do what uday told or go sit on a table where u know all four have cableconnection/T1 and play.

i think u nevr hosted outside your private club so u dont know, yet you seem to critise every post, i woud like to see u agree once in a while, u are unique just like everybody else but most seem to agree with others once in a while, i have others read your replie and a couple off others replies from you as well, they told me why bother , the man has one vision, probaly will never reconsider his thoughts ever and is just plain stuborn


P.S must add that im also suborn till certain degree but i changed my thinking at least several times after reading a replie from others, only reason why i use this forum is to get feedback and learn a thing or 2 .How? Reading others their post and see,think,listen,try and find out what makes sense and what doesnt

[spwdo]

hi


Defanition of unclocked = no time limit in second baord(also not in first but be lucky there is something like skipping a baord when less then five minutes so hear me, unclocked is semi clocked)
defanition of clocked = limited time( a max.) per baord


I really cant afford to start playing in an unclocked , i dont know when it ends and i dont want to be playing when a tourney begins where im directing , u can be as fast a bullet all it really needs is to have slow opps and u fall into the slow field




marc

[hallway]

cgull

You have No idea what it is like to be a TD !! NONE !!

So you and any others reading this who have mouthed off about TD's - I have a Deal for you.

It's one helluv a good deal - you'll be hiding behind my skirts !

You send me a day and time and I will set a Tournament for you.

I will send you a list of questions and I promise faithfully to load your answers to the letter. You and you alone will decide precisely how the Tournament is to operate. # bds, #round, timing, type of movement, # of participants, + + + - just exactly the way you want.

I will even promise to be there sitting quietly in the Tournament Lobby - just in case you need me - but of course you won't ! - this is after all a 'piece of cake' isn't it ?

That's my side of the Deal - your side ?? Be there - do it - then report back to this thread.

[inquiry]

LOL... Maureen, hard to believe that my hero can go up to a higher position in my eyes. But you just did... :-)

[mpefritz]

Welcome to the forums, cgull, I think Ben forgot to mention that.

There are problems with both types of timing:

Unclocked tourneys tend to have a fast group and a slow group. Just one slow pair can slow down many tables as a certain number of tables need to be freed up before a change can occur. That means that the last few tables MUST wait for the slowest table to finish. The wait time in an unclocked tournamant often then will depend on how slow your table was in the early rounds unless you can really play fast to "catch up". Also, the larger the field, the less likely you are to have to wait for enough other pairs to be freed up for the next round. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Clocked tournaments help, but sometimes pairs finish a round quickly and must wait. However, as I understand it from the TDs standpoint, the shorter the time per hand, the more likely they will be asked to adjust a hand -- which aleady adds to the excellent volunteer generally underappreciated work the TDs do on BBO. (note: I am NOT a TD)

I assume that Swiss tournaments and Survivor (even "0% cut") must be clocked else everyone must wait for a slow table.

So when you sign up for a tournament, look for the type of tournament and choose one that fits you. If you are a quick player, perhaps an untimed tournament would be for you if there is a large enough field -- with the warning that you will have to wait around for the final results AND might get stuck waiting for other tables to catch up with your rapid style of play. Otherwise, sign up for a timed tournament and you'll know how long it will take.

Also understand that your clock going to, say, -10 minutes, could mean that you have played so much faster than everyone else that you are waiting for enough other "fast" tables to catch up.

Also note that there are many reasons for "slow play" -- some due to bridge and some due to technical reasons.

Good luck at the table!

fritz

p.s. I think you have run into a buzz saw as some of the TDs around here are getting a little frazzled as the membership at BBO grows and the gripes to them are increasing. I hope I have helped.

[spwdo]

hi,

maureen right on!!!P.S.make me member for a day when/if it happens:)

fritz, thx for those similar of you we keep going p.s. think u very well skechted an unclocked event as for your questions, yes swiss = survivor with 0%cuts , only piars with a player missing are excused







P.s be gentil cgull, good tds are on the edge of extinsion, remember them in your prayers and send them something with X-mass

[inquiry]

Ah, fritz's comments made me realize that my enjoyment of Hallway's post could be interpreted as belittling cgull's issues. Nothing could be further from the truth, I simply enjoyed the way she made her point. And yes, welcome cgull, you will find us a fiesty bunch but always willing to share ideas.

I want to add, I avoid untimed tournments. The reason why, although I like to consider myself a fast player, if you get in an early round with a player with a poor connection you can become "the slow player" for the entire event. I ahve been in events where we finishi round one when a lot of other tables are finishing round three. Now even if you finish the next round in "rapid time", ther are no opponents for you yet (most others playing the boards you need already), so you sit there as the minus minutes click off. No let me play in timed events and get average minus for few hands we might not finish on time...or give me an understanding director who will see the problem was poor connection of someone else, or see that the result was cerntain and correct it to what it would have been if we had another minute or two.

Ben

[csdenmark]

Looks like we now have agreed that unclocked means quick tourney for the quick ones.

It is so that the whole unclocked tourney normally will complete within the same timeframe as clocked due to the flexibility that if you have faced a problem in an early round you have an option to catch up during the tourney. The waiting time some are posting of is annoying - agree. But that is only because it comes within a few hands. In clocked tourneys you will face exactly the same waiting time for the slower ones - but spread over all of the boards. Therefore you see the set up with switching opps. after every one played board. Then you will have a waiting time for 1 minute per board instead of perhaps, if unlucky 10 minutes waiting in a certain board. The summed waiting will be exactly the same as both formats will end at the same time.

The fraud in clocked events is hidden via frequent switch of opps. and cuts.

Admit of course Marc - there is a minor problem. If you are very unlucky with very hard connection problems - you will have problems at the end. There are rather good solutions for so - but that will require a minor modification of software in a way something like barometer. Something like after first pairs finishing then there will be no more switching of tables but the tourney will simply end with a barometer result. Maybe an option for the slower ones to press a button for the wish to complete full tourney aware of the ending problems. In fact that will mean for a 16 board/4 rounds that you will have

- a tourney result for those completing 16 boards
- a tourney result for those completing 12 boards only
- maybe even a tourney result for those completing 8 boards only

In that way you will not only have minimized waiting time you will have eliminated waiting time near to completely.

A TD not knowing whether his tourney will end after 120 or if very unlucky after 140 minutes I dont think is worth taking into consideration. But the proposal stated above will complete an unclocked event approx. 15% quicker that it will be possible for a clocked one.

Marc - running a lot of tourneys you will have a lot of practice - but no extra experience.

Fritz it is not so that just one pair will be able to slow the tourney down. In reality nobody can so. The problems for a pair will have not much influence to others - in fact only to their opps. in that round. They have an option to catch up themselves.

I would like the TD to present a pallette of options instead of just stepping into the heels of each other creating just the same. The limit choice today is not attractive and the set ups are not fair.

[hallway]

Sorry cgull - bad timing - it was actually Free's post in another thread that upped the stress levels - then to come across another new thread !!

I am NOT withdrawing the Deal offer though that is out there for anyone who cares to take me up on it - Free ???

It is the perception / attitude of the general membership that causes the grief we have difficulty coping with.

IF ONLY people would grasp the basics:

BBO is Fred/Uday's GIFT to the worldwide bridge fraternity.
When each person Logs In that person enters as their GUEST.

It is no different to knocking on someone's front door and being invited in.
When you step across their thresh hold you enter their space and behave as they expect. One should not criticise what they have/do , one should not make demands.

The Tournaments and the Club Activities are The TD's , and Private/Public Club Managers GIFT to the various sections of the BBO membership.
When a member enters a tournament or attends an activity in a Club they have joined they do so as the TDs/Manager's GUEST.
One should not criticise what they provide nor make demands upon them. Be grateful that they are willing to try !

They all know that there is no end to what could be done/needs to be done. They are all intelligent beings - why some can even play bridge By all means help to pioritise BUT positively !

Believe it or not Fred /Uday only have 24 hours in their day too !! so there are limits to what the software can permit the TD's/Manager's to achieve.

The chances are that the thing the member is complaining about is already on the TD/Manager's Wish List (mine runs to some 30 odd pages and to F/G's horror every time I get it out to cross one off I add 3 more !! )

I just wish that members would say:

It would be better if .........................................................................
because...........................................................................................
and if the software can handle it try doing ..........................................

Who knows that could just be a work around one had not thought of. !!

[spwdo]

csdenmark, on Apr 5 2004, 03:37 PM, said:

Looks like we now have agreed that unclocked means quick tourney for the quick ones.

in a certain board. The summed waiting will be exactly the same as both formats will end at the same time.

The fraud in clocked events is hidden via frequent switch of opps. and cuts].????????????
In fact that will mean for a 16 board/4 rounds that you will have

- a tourney result for those completing 16 boards
- a tourney result for those completing 12 boards only
- maybe even a tourney result for those completing 8 boards only
WHY IS this needed when u woud end in the same timeframe?????????
In that way you will not only have minimized waiting time you will have eliminated waiting time near to completely.

A TD not knowing whether his tourney will end after 120 or if very unlucky after 140 minutes I dont think is worth taking into consideration. But the proposal stated above will complete an unclocked event approx. 15% quicker that it will be possible for a clocked one. not true , u dont know what u are talking about, again i offered u to host for a change, we have tourney back to back so we MUST KNOW WHEN WE FINISH PERIOD


Marc - running a lot of tourneys you will have a lot of practice - but no extra experience.Practise but no experience, where do you get it. Not hosting =no experience=no practise makes talking about tourneys hot air

Fritz it is not so that just one pair will be able to slow the tourney down. In reality nobody can so. The problems for a pair will have not much influence to others - in fact only to their opps. in that round. They have an option to catch up themselves. Looks like U seem to disagree with almost every one on this topic

I would like the TD to present a pallette of options instead of just stepping into the heels of each other creating just the same. The limit choice today is not attractive and the set ups are not fair.Well, do`h  Start hosting yourself and make it fair instead of critissing everything claus, i find this arrogant

hi,

in purple is me


P>S claus, have u ever played in a tournament or is it just your nature that u critisise everthing posted by others, again when i host unclocked events, we recieve spammail that it all took to long, when is it finisched, not able to play next tounrey, with spammail i mean lots and lots of mail asking me to never host unclocked events, we run big events claus , not small ones restricted to private clubs, one slow opp is enough to put you in to suffering, in clocked we catch up with then very fast, we only have to check up late tables and get them moving

[csdenmark]

Marc an option for somebody who had been suffering during tourney is needed. An option simply to say "enough is enough - we quit for today". In unclocked it is so that those who had suffered already from poor connections or slow opps. they will be extra penalized in the end of the tourney because of the shrinking number of tables to switch with.

Once I remember an example with complete impossible connections to China. All chinese were suffering and all those who was opps to those suffered. Those not did not suffer but had all quite normal. I think those with no problems just play tourney quite normal. Those with problems I think it would be nice if they had an option to say "We dont want to suffer more ourselves - and we think others can just play tourney to the end." The alternative is in such hard and rare cases - cancellation.

You ask why needed as they would all end inside same timeframe. Yes thats true and here we have to take psychology into consideration.

1 round x 8 minutes = 8 minutes
4 rounds x 2 minutes = 8 minutes

In both cases 8 minutes - but the psychological feeling is completely different. Therefore both formats will end inside same timeframe both the impression from those who needs to hit the limits - the quick ones and those with no other problems - will be completely different.

As far as I have been able to find out how software switches is performed in unclocked is so that switches happens as soon you have 2-5 tables ready for a switch. Therefore time is minimized. Therefore you will in unclocked meet pairs playing in the same speed as yourself. In Swiss movement you will instead meet people playing with the same results as yourself. I think in reality not much of a difference - but that is really the difference between the formats.

Marc the reason why you set for 7 minutes and you have no real complaints about waiting is of course that most people have no waiting time - they simply need 6-7-8 minutes to play an average hand. For all those both formats would be exactly the same and it is therefore regarding none of those we are discussing here.

Therefore it would be very nice to see a greater variety of the formats offered!

[aramesh_]

Unclocked means quick tourney ONLY for the quick ones-One slow pair can prolong the tourney. How to screen pairs for quickness. Impossible to have a "slow player" list like you can have an enemy list. Because slow play may be intentional sometimes or due to connection problems.
In clocked tournies we know for certain how long its going to take.
Unclocked ones may finish faster or get prolonged-often its only prolonged.
When one cannot tolerate waiting for 4 minutes for the next round in a clocked tourney how r they going to feel when the clock runs into negative minutes in an unclocked tourney?

[spwdo]

csdenmark, on Apr 6 2004, 05:00 PM, said:

Marc an option for somebody who had been suffering during tourney is needed. An option simply to say "enough is enough - we quit for today".

well, ther is no button for that but lots are doing it as we speak, but i kiss the ground uday walks on to start tracking those who cant play full tourneys for whatever reason. Period