[inquiry]

1eyedjack, on Mar 18 2004, 02:31 AM, said:

There are no regulations for the main playing area (that I can find). If there are then they are not well referenced or indexed in the help system, which only tells you the mechanics of how to alert.

The bbo guidelines for the open room on alerts are clear....

"If you have ANY doubt as to whether one of your bids should be alerted or not, it is appropriate to alert it." and also, "It is up to our members to try their best to provide their opponents with information that may be helpful to them.

To read more on the BBO rules on alerts and other issues, be sure to go to the online gaming site, click on "EXPLORE BRIDGE", then Brige library, pick your language, and then click on "The RULES of this site".

I also want to clear up any misconceptions. I asked the 2♥ bidder what 2♥ meant in private chat... meaning no one else can see the question. And my rho answered me quickly and correctly. So the perception that there was a failure to answer the question is incorrect. Sadly, my partner didn't think to ask the same question and my opponent didn't think it was necessary to make sure that my partner understood the meaning of 2♥s.

Ben

[1eyedjack]

inquiry, on Mar 18 2004, 08:31 AM, said:

<Snip>

The bbo guidelines for the open room on alerts are clear....

"If you have ANY doubt as to whether one of your bids should be alerted or not, it is appropriate to alert it." and also, "It is up to our members to try their best to provide their opponents with information that may be helpful to them.

To read more on the BBO rules on alerts and other issues, be sure to go to the online gaming site, click on "EXPLORE BRIDGE", then Brige library, pick your language, and then click on "The RULES of this site".

<Snip>

Ben

That is useful to know. Thank you. The trail that leads to that information is (perhaps in my unique view) not particularly intuitive.

Having launched the software I clicked on "Help".

The web page thus launched contained a menu down the left hand side.

The first item in that menu under the Ace of Spades symbol is "Show Index".
Clicking on "Show Index" helpfully reveals the index, in which one item is "Alerts".
Clicking "Alerts" takes you to a description of the mechanics of alerting, but no guidance on the appropriateness.

An alternative route to the same help page, from the main menu, instead of clicking on "Show Index" is to click on "Other Information"/"At A Table". The top frame then shows a link to "Alerts". Again this is limited to a technical description of the operation of the software.

Having explored both of those routes I concluded that this was the limit of help provided on alerts by BBO.

I grant that there is a reference to "Site rules" and "Library" within the "Show Index" section. However there is no link from the technical help on Alerts to the policy help on alerts. You have to know where to look in the index before you get there. Now, I was probably being more stupid than usual even for me, but hence my original and erroneous conclusion that there were no alerting guidelines for the main area.

[Yzerman]

Hi all, I think this is interesting thread, for many reasons. This is kind of a way for me to judge what is most commonly accepted as standard as well as get a feel for what is in highest demand with respect to alert procedures/convention charts.

In response to Misho, I think in such cases it is the directors responsiblity to do the following;

1 - Be privvy to and have experience with the convention chart as per that specific event (in this case have read/studied abalucy convention chart and be familiar with SAYC)

2 - Acquire ALL the relevant facts from ALL 4 players participating in deal.

3 - Determine IF their was unfair advantage gained due to the lack of explanation or lack of alert.

4 - Make an intelligent decision based upon facts above.

I have had experience with this very problem both as online director and player. Personally, in this case I would have reviewed the deal and determined if there was unfair advantage, if unfair advantage was gained I think director should penalize the offending side and reward the non-offending side. IF no unfair advantage was gained, I think the director should let result stand BUT the offending side should be warned (whatever mechanism the tourney host uses to record warnings of such nature).

So the problem then lies in that particular directors JUDGEMENT as to whether unfair advantage was gained. In this case, a director that tends to rule "by the booK" would penalize/reward but another director might not adjust at all. My personal opinion is this should have been adjusted to Ave+/Ave- and a warning should be issued.

Unfortunately, there are subsets of "types" of players. There are players that;

1 - Alert everything (agreements and as per conv chart)
2 - Alert what they feel like (only what they "feel" should be alerted)
3 - Alert as per rules (only alert as per conv chart)

I agree that a player should alert EVERYTHING in which their partner knows something more than the opps know as well as EVERYTHING mandated by rules. To have "hidden" agreements and not to alert is just as wrong as not alerting anything that is required BECAUSE not alerting agreements is done to gain unfair advantage.

Regards,
MAL

[olmet]

A+- the must alert 2!h

[spwdo]

hi

u might want to check out http://www.blakjak.d...l_alt.htm#alert rule 19 there, i think its official acbl alerting procedure, if not coorect me please
in any case with the self alert we have to do online, when ever i get an explanation from opps in private i ask him/her to please use the bidding box for that so i know my partner knows also.
95% of players is using jac trsfers after strong nt so for not making alerting and adjusting any harder then it is already , maybe good thing to use that as a standard, natural response after 1 nt is alertable, weak nt also alertable and so on
what is used more widly isnt a bad thing when it becomes standard, uncommen things are uncommen and therefore need alert, only my simple suggestion to cut down the rules a little and actually spend more time with playing, having fun then .

in this cause i think i adjust when i was called to the table, have to review the full hand before i say defantly, but a warning 100%, i think abalucy and A bridge to far are similar (in rules i ment) and a clear guideline is was has been told several times, "alert when u wonder if your bid needs an alert". i think your winning in bridge should be a result of your bidding expertice and cardplay, not from what u can hide from opps and thefore trick them, besides some louzy points in the thing ben mentioned, what is the gain and possibly they felt some guilt after seeing the cold 4!S and the conversation between ben and partner, im sure i woud

marc

[inquiry]

A couple of issues.

First, upon reflection, misho and I should have called the director to protect the field, if not us, from our own lapse of not asking for meaning of 2♥.

Second, I know the opponents and respect them both. I don't think they were intentionally trying to hide anything from us. If I bid 2♥ natural in that situation, I wouldn't think to alert it either, as I always alert the jacoby transfer, and in addition to allerting write jacoby, or transfer or -->2♠ in the dialogue box. But like my opponent, not alerting a natural bid would seem "normal to me." Misho's problem with hand was also an education to me. :-)

Ben

[1eyedjack]

spwdo, on Mar 18 2004, 04:15 PM, said:

hi

u might want to check out http://www.blakjak.d...l_alt.htm#alert rule 19 there, i think its official acbl alerting procedure, ...<snip>

marc

Could I please implore readers NOT to follow this advice? The site may accurately state "official acbl alerting procedure", but the reader may fall into the trap of thinking that it is some relevance to an event that is not subject to acbl jurisdiction.

[Cascade]

inquiry, on Mar 18 2004, 06:24 PM, said:

If I bid 2♥ natural in that situation, I wouldn't think to alert it either, as I always alert the jacoby transfer, and in addition to allerting write jacoby, or transfer or -->2♠ in the dialogue box. But like my opponent, not alerting a natural bid would seem "normal to me." Misho's problem with hand was also an education to me. :-)

I frequently use the chat to opponents facility to explain things to opponents natural bids that I might not alert.

e.g.
1♥/♠ I tell the opponents "we play 4-card majors"

1♣/♦ I tell the opponents "Almost guarantees 4-card suit as we play 4-card majors"

Since so many play transfers and do not alert I would do the same (chat to opponents) and tell them if I played 2♥/♠ as natural over 1NT.

In general I like explanations that describe the hand you are showing so I usually explain my transfers as "Showing five hearts" rather than "Jacoby" or the like.

[spwdo]

hi,

knew i didnt make myself clear , i probaly stop some day to post replies, i never ment to suggest in this particulary case its was an intention to trick opps , i just made a general comment on the issue if some do this on purposse as a convention so to say.I probaly went talking about the sideeffect of nonalerts or false explaination and wasnt at all referring to the intional post or players involved , i just took that as an example .

As far the alerting link i provide, neveri have stated some slitest remark , suggestion or whatever that this is "the official acbl" site with their alerting procedures, just a copy of what is theirs for everybody to read upon who is interested in the topic so NO ACBL JURISTITION, NO ACBL EVENTS, NOTHING TO DO WITH ACBL, NO TRAP EITHER PFFFFFFFF TRAP if u quote me friend dont take things out of context and suggesting that i in any thing i posted made a connection to acbl events, wher the hell did you make that out:(
just a copy i found with google because the "under acbl jurisdiction thing" wasnt easy or not at all found

im afriad to post here if u want my overall view, seems that everything that can be taken out of context or misinterpreted can and will be and attack upon from members with far better languages skills , me trying to actife taken a role here in posting is been punisched(dont know a better word and translater doesnt provide one in english) several times only based upon languages problems i have