[rogerclee]

This should be clear, I think, but just checking. What is 4C in this auction?

1NT* - (2D) - 3D** - (P)
3S - (P) - 4C(?)

* 1NT = 15-17
** 3D = Stayman, GF, no ♦ stop

[han]

Gameforcingforcing with 5+ clubs and 4 hearts, not necessarily showing a really big hand.

[pclayton]

Gerber obv.

[gnasher]

It's an indication that you should be playing Rubensohl.

[cherdano]

Let me be devil's advocate.
This can't be natural, with 5+clubs and 4 hearts responder would start with a forcing 3♣ bid, over which it is still very easy find a 4-4 major fit. So this is a cue for spades, his only way to make a slam try without a diamond control, while it is very easy to force to game with 4 hearts and longer clubs...

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Feb 11 2008, 05:31 PM, said:

cherdano, on Feb 11 2008, 06:22 PM, said:

Let me be devil's advocate.
This can't be natural, with 5+clubs and 4 hearts responder would start with a forcing 3♣ bid, over which it is still very easy find a 4-4 major fit. So this is a cue for spades, his only way to make a slam try without a diamond control, while it is very easy to force to game with 4 hearts and longer clubs...

No, it won't be easy to find a 4-4 heart fit since partner will bid 3N with diamonds well stopped, and if he bids 3M he will be showing 5 of them not 4 of them, or a hand that is trying to cooperate in clubs, since he is not looking for a 4-4 fit.

He can easily bid 3♦ when he doesn't have diamonds well stopped to look for 4-4 fits. Anyway, of course the point is whether 3♣ denies a 4-card major. I am sure it does undiscussed, but I am not sure it is the optimal treatment here (esp. with the cheap cue bid available to look for 4-4 fits over 3♣).

[han]

Dear Devil,

What would 4H be? I would buy that that is a cue for spades, and denies a diamond cue.

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Feb 11 2008, 05:53 PM, said:

Why should 3D ask for 4-4 fits? If partner bid 3M over 3D I would never assume he is showing a 4 card major, I would just think he had values there. What if partner has 4S, 5C and a diamond stopper? What will he bid over 3D...3S? What if opener doesn't have a D stop, will he bid 3N? This sequence denies any stopper at all?

What if opener has a 4 card major and a D stopper? He bids 3N and misses a 4-4 fit? Or he bids 3D and then over 3S bids what? Oh 3N... but I thought that denied a stopper...

You are trying to do too much here.

Of course that auction is problematic, but so is (as you know) the actual auction. We may have missed a superior 3N because with both spades and diamond stoppers, partner's priority is to show spades.

[cherdano]

Hmm ok the devil resigns.

[Cascade]

Jlall, on Feb 12 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

cherdano, on Feb 11 2008, 06:22 PM, said:

Let me be devil's advocate.
This can't be natural, with 5+clubs and 4 hearts responder would start with a forcing 3♣ bid, over which it is still very easy find a 4-4 major fit. So this is a cue for spades, his only way to make a slam try without a diamond control, while it is very easy to force to game with 4 hearts and longer clubs...

No, it won't be easy to find a 4-4 heart fit since partner will bid 3N with diamonds well stopped, and if he bids 3M he will be showing 5 of them not 4 of them, or a hand that is trying to cooperate in clubs, since he is not looking for a 4-4 fit.

... and if he does bid 3♥ it will be very hard to find out if we have a stopper in diamonds for 3♥ so there will be a reluctance to introduce an ordinary four-card heart suit even if you think that is what it shows.

[Cascade]

If it can be natural and we haven't discussed it then it is natural.

This can be natural so it is natural.

By the way whatever happened to negative doubles to find our major suit fits. They are much more efficient given that they start at a much lower level.

[Codo]

So the bidding so far

1 NT (2 ♦)

You look at xx, AKxx, xx,KQxxx

You really try 3 Diamond (stayman without a stopper) and bid 4 Club then?
You will never reach 3 NT with this approach.

Is it too hard for partner to understand that a 3 NT rebid (instead of 4 Club) here still denies stoppers and denies a spade fit, so that it MUST show 4 Hearts and some clubs?

(Remeber that you had bid 2 NT followed by 3 Diamond to show stayman with a stopper in Diamonds).

IF you believe that pd is capable to understand 3 NT, then 4 Club should be a cuebid for spades. But this seems to be wishful thinking.

[Codo]

Jlall, on Feb 13 2008, 01:12 AM, said:

?? Sometimes you have a slam try that doesn't want to sign off in 3N. Bridge is not all about game bidding.

So with a slam interested hand with clubs and hearts but without points in diamonds and no negative double avaiable you want to bid 4 Club.

Sounds like an interesting hand and a small target.
Something like A,KQxx,xxx,AKxxx maybe?
And you find pd with KQx, Axx, Axx, QJxx?

You play much more hands then I do, so you will find these hands more often. Maybe once a decade?

[han]

I would argue that you don't even need serious slam interest. How about Qxx AJxx - Kxxxxx?

To answer Cascade's question, I would not make a negative double with that hand.

Of course I agree that usually will have slam interest.