[spwdo]

a td ask me today to co-host his tourney, i said no but when kibitzing i saw that he went offline, so i ask yellow to make me td, lot of work it was (60)table , unclocked when on tourney itself was written clocked, so a lot of problems finding my way around , when it was almost finisched i got an angry call about a score not beeing adjusted when told from td it would, the other td in this time came back online, excused himself for not feeling well and he had promised this player a scoreadjust, when i ask why didnt do it, he said: i dondt know how. my question now is: is it good for bbo and bbo-winners.net to have td run tourneys like that, lots off players were mad because of timedelay(clocked but it wasnt), lots of tables had from round one one player missing (lots of adjust to be made) some went out beacuse they didnt play at all. i told this td what td`s should know about winners.net, he answered me in telling that he would try again tomorrow, look on scheduled and same host, same #pairs and#boards, maybe bbo-winners.net should have a standard for his td`s?

[inquiry]

sceptic, on Jan 6 2004, 07:36 PM, said:

I would like to know how others managed score adjustments when running tourneys as when I direct, I don't seem to be able to cope with them very well, has anyone got some practical tips they can give me

You really dont' have time to deal with things like mis-alerts, failure to alert, mis-information unless you have a low player to director ratio. What I generally do, is just try to keep the peace when one side has played slowly and a hand isn't finished. There I try to assure an equitable finish to the hand. This might be (technically incorrect... trying to guess what is going to happen if there are more than a few tricks left -- even when the play looks obvious, is of course not something a director really should do...but there you go, I do it anyway or award averages), determining what the result would have been and awarding that, or giving average + to the non-offending side or the side most likely to get a good result had the hand been finished.

If you start adjusting scores for hands that were completed (thus changing a completed result, say 4H from down one to 4H making), you are in for a very long day and lots of hassles. Anyway, this is what I do. To aid this task, I ask to be called to the table before time trouble errupts, so i can assess the situation.

Ben

[mink]

sceptic, on Jan 7 2004, 12:36 AM, said:

I would like to know how others managed score adjustments when running tourneys as when I direct, I don't seem to be able to cope with them very well, has anyone got some practical tips they can give me

Hi Sceptic,

here are my tips:

Do not take more pairs than you can handle.

Set the playing time to a value where most players are able to finish.

If a round contains a difficult board, maybe add 2 minutes for this round only.

Ask the players to send you a private message when they need an adjustment. This should contain the board number and the table number (at small clocked non-swiss tourneys you can find out the table number yourself).

Carefully look at the movie in order to find out what the result would have been if players would have continued. If you are sure, make the adjustment.

If there are several possible scores, I ask which pair caused the delay. If both pairs agree on this point, I take a score that is in favor of the innocent pair.

If both pairs don't agree, maybe you can ask kibs or find out in some other way. Last resort is not to adjust but leave the ave-.

In the last round, give some more time so all can finish and you do not have to adjust after the tourney. Maybe you can adjust the last tables while they are still playing but a player has a problem.

Other director calls have higher priority than adjusting. So maybe you do not get all adjustments done before the tourney ends. In this case tell players that the results will not be final when the tourney ends and do the adjustments after the tourney with myhands.

BTW most of the adjustments I made were obvious and could have been made automatically by software if there was software for this purpose.

It would also help if there was a list of ave- boards available so that it would be unnecessary to be asked by players.

Karl

[mink]

hi Sceptic,

if I were not able to do adjustments, I would not direct a single tourney. According to my experience, people tend to think most hard if they are in a desperate situaltion and going to have a bad result. Likely this results in missing the deadline for that board and they get an ave-, which is probably better than the score they would have gotten if they finished. For the innocent pair, ave- is a great loss. So I believe that this automatical ave- is very unfair in most cases, and I adjust whenever possible.

A much better solution would be, however, if unfinished boards would be played anyway even if the next round has already begun, and the respective pairs start late for next round and will miss a board completely some time if they do not catch up. This would require of course that pairs that caused the delay get an ave- for unfinished boards and innocent pairs get an ave+. And this would require that the software measures the thinking time of each player in order to decide who caused the delay automatically.

Karl

[spwdo]

hi

i`m with mink on all thisadjustments issues, i believe its not right to creata large tournaments with qualifiers for bbo-winners.net , players seem to be much more demanding then.

in the case of yesterday, creating a 16 board120 pairs event without possiblility of an adjust( tourneys laest about three hours) is asking to much from players, then running to yellow for help or wurse even td just went offline(that happened yesterday) when he couldnt coope with normal host problems,

[Trpltrbl]

mink, on Jan 6 2004, 08:07 PM, said:

hi Sceptic,

if I were not able to do adjustments, I would not direct a single tourney. According to my experience, people tend to think most hard if they are in a desperate situaltion and going to have a bad result. Likely this results in missing the deadline for that board and they get an ave-, which is probably better than the score they would have gotten if they finished. For the innocent pair, ave- is a great loss. So I believe that this automatical ave- is very unfair in most cases, and I adjust whenever possible.

A much better solution would be, however, if unfinished boards would be played anyway even if the next round has already begun, and the respective pairs start late for next round and will miss a board completely some time if they do not catch up. This would require of course that pairs that caused the delay get an ave- for unfinished boards and innocent pairs get an ave+. And this would require that the software measures the thinking time of each player in order to decide who caused the delay automatically.

Karl

I have had some problems for a while how certain people run their tourneys, but hey it's a free world so they can do whatever they want. I just don't play in their tourneys, and no adjustment during a tourney why even run one?
People slow playing all the time and then try to blame opps or something else. It's becoming a very big problem. So I have people call me as soon as they r at halfway point of round, and if they r still playing first hand I'll watch and see who is slow playing. And then I give the Nonoffenders A+ on next hand and offenders A- if they are no able to finish round in time.
They can whine and cry all they want, but that's the way I run my tourney. And people know that now, don't have very many problems anymore And making adjustments is best part of tourney, making sure nobody gets away with stuff. And I can run a 40 table tourney by myself clocked and making adjustments.
Just takes a little bit of practice

Mike

[Maaa]

Same here.



But it is different with bbo-winners.net , I think we, the bbo-winners TDrs should meet and form some clear guidelines.

[Gerben47]

There is a big problem with your method Trpltrbl. Suppose pair A plays against B and pair A is slow and the first board takes a lot of time. Now pair B calls because of this and they get slam hands on the second board on which they need a lot of time.

Now they are in Morton's Fork. Either they take their time and end up with 40% or not take their time and end up with perhaps even less because they made a mistake.

I like Inquiry's way. Although it is not what TDs in normal tournaments should do, I think it IS what they should do in Online Tournaments. I have had experience with this in offline tournaments.

In extreme speedball, after time (9 minutes for 4 boards) has run out all play stops and an estimator sets the result based on what's left.[

[mr1303]

From my experience the main difficulty is deciding what the score should be adjusted to. I have had several arguments over my decision to adjust scores.
I find that players are not too bothered over the odd overtrick, but a redoubled slam is very contentious.

Any suggestions as to how to make this easier? I like to think that I could spot most reasonable plays by looking at the movie.

[Trpltrbl]

Gerben47, on Jan 9 2004, 05:03 PM, said:

There is a big problem with your method Trpltrbl. Suppose pair A plays against B and pair A is slow and the first board takes a lot of time. Now pair B calls because of this and they get slam hands on the second board on which they need a lot of time.

Now they are in Morton's Fork. Either they take their time and end up with 40% or not take their time and end up with perhaps even less because they made a mistake.

I like Inquiry's way. Although it is not what TDs in normal tournaments should do, I think it IS what they should do in Online Tournaments. I have had experience with this in offline tournaments.

In extreme speedball, after time (9 minutes for 4 boards) has run out all play stops and an estimator sets the result based on what's left.[

Ah, I guess I forgot to say that I look at what is left of the hand and if I can make a reasonable ruling on line of play then I change it to whatever the outcome may be. Most of the time there are only few tricks left so outcome fairly clear, that's why I insist of them calling me at halfway point of round if they r way behind. But if they just started playing the hand and round ends y can not really say which way it was going, and that's when I assign the A+ and A- to nonoffender and offender.
Sorry for not being more clear

Mike

[rmoyster]

I am in TOTAL agreement with Marta -

we should get together, in a chat room,
discuss minimum requirements to run qualifying events for the BBO-Winners.

I started this thing for all the directors. I want this to be BBO-Wide, not mine.

WATCH for my mail messages on BBO to inform and invite all the directors to the meeting and its time.

Jim

[Trpltrbl]

rmoyster, on Jan 9 2004, 10:35 PM, said:

I am in TOTAL agreement with Marta -

we should get together, in a chat room,
discuss minimum requirements to run qualifying events for the BBO-Winners.

I started this thing for all the directors. I want this to be BBO-Wide, not mine.

WATCH for my mail messages on BBO to inform and invite all the directors to the meeting and its time.

Jim

Shud ing pizza or beer ?

Mike

[Trpltrbl]

sceptic, on Jan 27 2004, 01:40 PM, said:

I can run tourneys and I can do adjustments, I have seen what you all have wrote and I still, find it a problem, doing an adjustment is easy, the main issue I have is , when the hand is over, I can never find the board in question to look at it to see if the basis of the claim is correct. If someone can help me learn how to look back at a hand that is finsihed, it will sort out my difficulties.

Thanks

Wayne

It depends what kinda tournament you run. With barometer on you cannot find back the brd that certain players played, because both pairs are moving in different directions, they actually can be both N/S or E/W the next round. Other movements have N/S always stay at same table while E/W move 1 table at a time.
But I make it a point to let everybody at my tourney know that I want
1) Table #
2) Brd #
3) Result
4) Direction

and without it I will NOT make adjustments. Haven't had any problems lately.

Mike

[uday]

In clocked pair movements, realtively easy to find a board ( EW has moved up each round, and the field is divided into "sections" of approx equal size).

In unclocked/swiss/survivor/individuals there is no good way to find a board without help from one of the involved players. I will fix this the moment i get off my performance issues.

[Giasone]

I generally in case of average control if the hand has winning in order to assign an exact result without to grant impasse expasse etc it is obvious that if lacks cards to the 3 end or the result the contract already it had been caught up I I modify in that sense. in case of pairs slow and not succeeding to reconstruct the hand A+ check to the pairs not guilty and to pairs slow or with pd frozen and a chip ax sub. I always do not ask myself if he wants sub players are free to refuse this but ended the turn in order to concur regulating development of the tourney I ask who kindly refuses that it will come sub for giving the possibility to the tourney to continue regularly. it is good norm not to begin tourneys with a high number of players if he is not himself able to manage this. it is important also that the new directors as soon as he qualifies to you before beginning help more expert directors who can teach them rules to they in order to manage a tourney and to correct the score. I as an example before making tourney mine have helped TriTri and after when they have been qualified to make mine for a day tornei have been with beky that all creed has explained me that this is the just thing to make with all the new directors. if the new director in nanny of tourney for he impossible sry all for my english my translator does not want itself to be left I hope is understood
Giasone

[etherwiz]

mink, on Jan 6 2004, 05:07 PM, said:

And this would require that the software measures the thinking time of each player in order to decide who caused the delay automatically.

Actually it is not needed to measure the time to thik - only the reaction time. It would be GREAT if a TD could see the time it took for palyer (or partnership if not Indiv) takes to make responsies. If one side had 11 mins and the other 4 mins then it is obvious who should be penalized. Does it really matter if this time is true thought (over a hard board to play or defend) or just killing time to get a better score? The result is the same. The board was not completed in the time alloted for everyone. And the TD can see who was taking more time.

I guess what I am asking for is the list of tables show not only the Round/Board that table is on, but the "Delay" time recorded by the server between bids/card play. While we are at it, you can make the Table Number Flash if a Director Call is still OutStanding at that table. Of course the falsh would be turned off when a Director visits that table (not nesc. resolving the issue, as for some players some issues will never be resolved). Of Courese the Delay TIme (total per board) would have to be included in the Movies as wellas the Table Number.

Perhaps this reaction time can be displayed as a flag between the N/S chairs and between the E/W chairs. Perhaps the Board Number could be displayed as falg in the table number (forcing the TD's to convert the Board Number to a Round Number, no big deal and would tell not only which tables are on which round but which tables are running late for the current round).

But perhaps I am just dreaming also.

[bambi1]

A couple of notes:

If the TDs could see the time players took to bid and play that would be very helpful in deciding on any adjustment. An added bonus would be if we could see how many tables had finished the boards when the round is almost complete.

As for adjustments. I always ask for table #, board # and result. It is very helpful and I do not have many problems. A hint is to ask the players to type in their chat box (at the round change) the table # and board number(s). That way it is always accessible to them if they need it.

I think the players get to know each TD and what is expected of them. How much is tolerated, and how we handle situations. Every TD has their own style, but the bottom line is we should all obide by Bridge Laws. Making or not making adjustments is up to the individual TD. (a tourney without adj. I would not play in.

Also, bigger tournaments are not better tournaments. I feel the survivor movement is being over used and abused. I thought uday created this to make it easier for TDs (as disconnected players would not be seated next round, making substitutions less of a problem). Many TDs are running BIG tournaments with 35% cut after 2nd round. Most players do not like this, and it is very difficult to direct a tournament of a big size with this high cut. Twice I was KOed because TD could not get to table in time (slow play) and we were in a x contract making I think if you choose this format, you cannot direct alone.

As for A+ and A-, I try and stay away from that if possible. If there are a couple of cards left to play, I will adjust to the correct contract. If the contract is impossible to adjust than A+ and A- is my only alternative. Some unscrupulous players use that to their advantage, as they are in 5NTX going down, playing very slowly, and end up with A-. (There are 6 cards left to play, hard to adjust as the play in unpredictable). Pair ends up with 40% instead of a zero (maybe!).

Well we are on the way to better software for directing. Thank you uday!