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do you pass here ? if not what you bid?

#21 User is offline   jocdelevat 

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Posted 2007-January-30, 12:50

Thank you all.This was the board.

Scoring: IMP


West North East South

 -     -     -     Pass
 Pass  1♣    Dbl   Pass
 1NT   Pass  3NT   Pass
 Pass  Pass  

My partner really got excited with my 1nt bid. The idea of 1d is great to discourage partner. Anyhow I'm not sure if I were in his shoes I will jump to game with that hand and a passed partner.
It's not what you are, it's how you say it!

best regards
jocdelevat
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#22 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2007-January-30, 13:06

I would have bid 1D, though 1H also crossed my mind. Pass is out of the question, and I'm not strong enough for 1NT (I believe that there is no real consensus about how much strength 1NT show show over 1M-X, but over 1C it should show a better hand, at least a good 7-count imo).

Partner has a nice hand, I can't fault 3NT.
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#23 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2007-January-30, 14:15

1N is a terrible bid. It PROMISES values... there is NEVER a reason to lie about values over 1♣... you will always have a 3 card suit to bid, with a very weak hand, unless you have 7+ clubs, in which case pass rates to be the better call :)

Think of it this way: a bid of a suit at the 1 level carries no assurance of even 1 hcp, while only ostensibly promising 4 cards: any partner will know that a double of 1♣ will often catch partner with 3=3=3=4 or the like.

However, a bid of 1N carries a positive assurance of significant high card values, not to mention a stopper...one may well lie about a stopper after, say, 1♦ double: with Kx Jxx 10xxx KQxx, I would probably bid 1N rather than 2♣.

So when making a bid in a constructive auction, when any bid is likely to at least mildly mislead, choose the call that is the least lie, and if two calls appear to be equally misleading, choose the cheaper one: that gives you more room to recover.

Here, 1N is an enormous lie compared to any suit bid. All suit bids are 'lies' in a mild sense, so I choose 1♦ as it is the cheapest. It is also the bid least likely to get partner excited, but, to offset that, likely to be the poorest fit: partner will frequently be 4=4=3=2.
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#24 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2007-January-30, 14:52

jocdelevat, on Jan 30 2007, 01:50 PM, said:

Thank you all.This was the board.

Scoring: IMP


West North East South

 -     -     -     Pass
 Pass  1♣    Dbl   Pass
 1NT   Pass  3NT   Pass
 Pass  Pass  

My partner really got excited with my 1nt bid. The idea of 1d is great to discourage partner. Anyhow I'm not sure if I were in his shoes I will jump to game with that hand and a passed partner.

On the one hand, I wouldn't have bid 3NT with East's hand, I would have bid 2NT*. It's close...your milage may vary.

But even if he'd had an automatic 3NT bid (give him the Q♥, for example, or a 6th diamond), and you're still dead. His hand is borderline, yours isn't.

*as an Intermediate player known to be somewhat insane.
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#25 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2007-January-30, 15:09

This hand is a good example of the benefits of the Herbert Negative here, especially after 1♣-X-P. (1♥/1♠ would be legitimate, 4-card, with constructive values; 1♦ is artificial and usually weak.)

I'm not sure myself why this innovation from years ago never took off. If Lebensohl after weak two's make sense, why not Herbert Negatives after 1♣-X-P, 2♣(Precision)-X-P, 3♣-X-P, and other auctions?

Not only does the Herbert Negative structure provide a solution for this hand. It also allows partner to know that 1♣-X-P-1♥, for instance, shows 4+ hearts assuredly and an expectation of at least 6 HCP (or whatever your agreed minimum for constructive would be). Also, it allows doubler to not get excited because of a shapely hand like shown. Further, it allows doubler to actually handle a stronger hand better.
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#26 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2007-January-30, 15:46

Uhm, this hand is not an example for the need of Herbert negatives, Ken. If West bids a natural 1♦ or 1♥, nothing goes wrong...
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#27 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2007-January-30, 15:58

Please don't mention that Arend. Claus, (CsDenmark), will jump on this badwagon again. Actually some of the Italians do play step as a negative over 1 level Xs. They include other specialised responses as well.
But "Don't mention the war!!"
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#28 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2007-January-30, 16:12

cherdano, on Jan 30 2007, 04:46 PM, said:

Uhm, this hand is not an example for the need of Herbert negatives, Ken. If West bids a natural 1♦ or 1♥, nothing goes wrong...

I'm not sure I follow. The ideal contract seems to be 1NT. After a natural 1♦ or 1♥, I have difficulty getting to 1NT. Even if doubler downgrades the potential of this hand, I still see no reasonable auction to 1NT.

After a Herbert Negative 1♦, doubler bids 1♥ (scrambling) and Responder bids 1NT. Tada!

(Sorry Hog... :) )
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#29 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2007-January-31, 00:15

Its ok Ken, I misread who the poster was. It was Arend, (Cherdano). Its just that Claus has a bee in his bonnet abut Herbert negatives and goes on and on ad nauseum.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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