[firmit]

As South, my hand is dealt as:
♠AQ1096
♥3
♦A109
♣AJ109

None / E - Team match, Imps- Bidding is as follows:
1♦-1♠-2♦-2♠;
3♦-4♠-p-p;
5♦!-?

What to do? As South 4♠ is maximum and saying we have game. It is obvious from South's position that E is making a sacrifice bid, with maybe 9 trumphs all together - but a 5♦X may be a bare minimum compared to 5♠.

I chose to pass, which should be, in any agreement given the above auction, forcing partner to make a choice between 5♠ and a penalty-dbl. Is this correct?

What is your choice?

PS: changed original error where it showed ♥ instead of ♠

[firmit]

I wish to hear your opinions, because my partner did NOT understand the situation we were in. She actually chose to pass(!) making us loose 6 imps when 4S was played at the other table.

[mikeh]

1st: a minor point: you used the wrong symbol for the ♠ sit.. it was initially confusing to me...however, I am easily confused

I am assuming that you held 5=1=3=4 as overcaller and bid 1♠ then, after partner raised to 2♠, bid game. If anyone was bidding ♥s, ignore what follows. Not that it is wrong (it may be) but because it is irrelevant to whatever happened... and I have guessed wrong as to what happened.

As for the forcing nature of the pass, if you read the posts here frequently, you will see that there is far from universal agreement on how to tell when a fp sequence is in effect.

Ordinarily, I would not play overcaller's jump to game as creating a force... there are many times when one simply wishes to bid the limit of the hand as soon as possible, in the hope of shutting the opps out.

If overcaller wants to create a force in most such competitive auctions, he must bid a new suit at the 4-level or cue their suit or make some otherwise unambiguous announcement that 'we are bidding game on power.. this is OUR hand'.

However, arguably, the opps have, in a sense, done that for you. The 3♦ call carried no invitational meaning, no show of strength. Therefore, the 4♠ bid was clearly bid to make... you were not trying to push the opps around: the opps had limited their constructive bidding to an attempt to play 3♦.

Accordingly, I think pass should be forcing.

However, I would NEVER pass here: I would double.

Partner will rarely hold 4 ♠s (no jump raise, if you play that as weak as do most) and partner has at least 4 and probably longer ♥s (no-one bid them and responder will usually negative double with 4♥ and the values to bid 2♦)

I expect to beat 5♦ between 300 and 500: adequate compensation for missing 420, and my hand is not quite good enough to expect to make 11 tricks enough times to justify 5♠.

Put another way: if we can make 450, we have a great chance at 500.

[ohioply]

I generally don't believe in forcing pass unless you have discussed the situation with your partner. I think your hand should double. Give your partner a hand like xxx KQJxx xx xxx and even 4♠ might have problems.

[FrancesHinden]

What mike says on the heart/spade suit.
I don't think pass is forcing here: if I wanted to make certain of a forcing pass I would have bid 4♦ over 3♦.

But this is pretty irrelevant to the hand in question, because I think you have a clear double of 5D. It wasn't obvious that 4♠ was going to make, and I am comfortable that 5D is unlikely to make.

p.s. what are you leading against 5♦x ?

[the hog]

Agree with those who say don't pass, X. You won't make 5S.

[brianshark]

I don't think your pass is forcing. 4♠ might be a lott-based pre-emptive raise rather than having extra points.

And you definately should have doubled with that hand. Those aces are great defensive values, as well as your texture in the minors.

[bid_em_up]

The_Hog, on Jan 27 2007, 04:58 PM, said:

Agree with those who say don't pass, X. You won't make 5S.

Really?

[FrancesHinden]

bid_em_up, on Jan 29 2007, 07:37 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jan 27 2007, 04:58 PM, said:

Agree with those who say don't pass, X. You won't make 5S.

Really?

You might make 5S. But if 5S is making I would expect a good sized penalty over 5D. Nothing is certain; of course we can construct hands where that isn't the case. But I don't expect 5S to be a picnic on a trump lead. If partner has the very suitable

Kxx
Qxxxx
x
Qxxx

and RHO is, say, 1462 with the CK then we have at least 300 from 5Dx without getting cute; improve partner's heart holding fractionally and it's an easy 500.

[bid_em_up]

firmit, on Jan 26 2007, 04:26 PM, said:

As South, my hand is dealt as:
♠AQ1096
♥3
♦A109
♣AJ109

None / E - Team match, Imps- Bidding is as follows:
1♦-1♠-2♦-2♠;
3♦-4♠-p-p;
5♦!-?

What to do? As South 4♠ is maximum and saying we have game. It is obvious from South's position that E is making a sacrifice bid, with maybe 9 trumphs all together - but a 5♦X may be a bare minimum compared to 5♠.

I chose to pass, which should be, in any agreement given the above auction, forcing partner to make a choice between 5♠ and a penalty-dbl. Is this correct?

What is your choice?

PS: changed original error where it showed ♥ instead of ♠

First, I would have cuebid 4♣ or 4♦ with this hand (instead of 4♠) confirming it is our hand, now pass would be 100% forcing.

Having failed to cuebid, pass over 5♦ on the given auction should be forcing. 2♦ is limited, 3♦ is limited, and you voluntarily bid game over this (and the 2♠ raise can be pretty much any hand containing 3+ spades for some people). You are not taking an advance sac, you are bidding with the expectations of making, which creates a forcing pass situation.

I would expect to make 5♠ opposite any hand that had a legitimate 2♠ bid more often than not (I wouldnt even rule 6♠ out of the question yet).

But.....whenever you are unsure how partner is going to treat a forcing pass....double is usually best. If you are not willing to play at the 5 level, the immediate double is best. In this case, I'm willing to play 5♠ if partner bids it instead of doubling 5♦. If partner manages to cuebid the A♥ over the forcing pass, I will bid 6♠ and fully expect to make.

[Apollo81]

Pass should be foricng in this auction, but as others have noted not everyone agrees on which auctions should be forcing and which shouldn't. Thus it's better to take decisive action yourself if you are not 100% sure that partner is on the same wavelength as you are.

With this hand, double seems automatic....there aren't enough trumps around to justify 5 over 5.

[firmit]

Scoring: IMP

---

E -- S -- W -- N
1♦ - 1♠ - 2♦ - 2♠
3♦ - 4♠ - p - p
5♦!- p* - p - p!!

Deal and bids. My thoughts were that my pass was forcing, given I volunteraly bid game. But, after getting some signals from different people, I will have to say that I will double myself next time!

It should be mentioned that we actually had agreed on Forcing pass in some given situations, but that my partner did NOT recognize it in the current one.

Also, this was my first Topic! And I am very pleased! Ty for all the responses.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

pass.

pass is nonforcing, nobody except the 4S bidder
knows, what 4S was based on, it may have been
a game try.
And it may well be that 5D was bid with the intention
to have a fair chance to make, e.g. it could be based
on a spade void.

With kind regards
Marlowe