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Counting the cards strategies wanted

#1 User is offline   pdmunro 

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Posted 2007-January-24, 20:57

What do you do to help you count the cards?
Peter . . . . AKQ . . . . K = 3 points = 1 trick
"Of course wishes everybody to win and play as good as possible, but it is a hobby and a game, not war." 42 (BBO Forums)
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#2 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-January-24, 21:06

play slower and concentrate.
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#3 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2007-January-24, 21:38

Take a look at this thread. counting

or this one...

counting hands and remembering cards

or this one in counting the pips
--Ben--

#4 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2007-January-24, 22:44

Jlall, on Jan 24 2007, 10:06 PM, said:

play slower and concentrate.

Great advice....great question!


I am doing my now yearly review of Lawrence :lol: ....Read the opp cards....as usual during reading my play is going up to expert level.......for now/....... :(
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#5 User is offline   pdmunro 

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Posted 2007-January-25, 04:25

Has anyone made a movie file with annotations of their thoughts during the play of a hand?
Peter . . . . AKQ . . . . K = 3 points = 1 trick
"Of course wishes everybody to win and play as good as possible, but it is a hobby and a game, not war." 42 (BBO Forums)
"If a man speaks in the forest and there are no women around to hear is he still wrong?" anon
"Politics: an inadequate substitute for bridge." John Maynard Keynes
"This is how Europe works, it dithers, it delays, it makes cowardly small steps towards the truth and at some point that which it has admonished as impossible it embraces as inevitable." Athens University economist Yanis Varoufakis
"Krypt3ia @ Craig, dude, don't even get me started on you. You have posted so far two articles that I and others have found patently clueless. So please, step away from the keyboard before you hurt yourself." Comment on infosecisland.com
"Doing is the real hard part" Emma Coats (formerly from Pixar)
"I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again." Oscar Wilde
"Assessment, far more than religion, has become the opiate of the people" Patricia Broadfoot, Uni of Gloucestershire, UK
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#6 User is offline   SoTired 

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Posted 2007-January-25, 05:58

Jlall, on Jan 24 2007, 10:06 PM, said:

play slower and concentrate.

great advice... implies that you should actually LOOK at each card as it is played.
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2007-January-25, 10:41

Justin's advice is exactly right (no surprise there). I would add:

Whether you are defending or declaring: review the auction before you play to trick one..whether it be your lead, your partner's or the opps. You will often already have some important clues...but it is critical to stay flexible. One of the easiest traps one can fall into is failing to refine or change that original, tentative picture as more information becomes available.

If you are just beginning your exploration of bridge, playing a lot of count signals will help you and your partner... and most of the opps against whom you will play will either not follow your carding very well or not maximize the advantage that constant-count defenders give to declarer...so it is probably a good approach and will certainly make you learn to count faster. However, and this is a big however, as you advance in your ability to draw inferences, your need for count carding should diminish... and you will become a tougher opp if you cut back, drastically, on giving count.

I will add one more idea: dummy has no responsibility for the play of the cards... and less direct knowledge, since you see only your 13 cards plus the cards actually played. I know that most will advise that you should relax as dummy. I never could and rarely do. Instead, I reconstruct the hand, drawing inferences from the play of the cards and the auction, to see if I can work out the hands. It is a great way to practice, if that's what you want to do. I do it partly because I have a streak of obsessive behaviour in me and partly to help me become and stay focussed during a session.

As for a movie or thought file, I don't know anyone who has time for this. Reese used to write 'Over my shoulder' columns, in which he pretended to set out his thought process during a hand. I say pretended, because the columns were far too short to have actually set out everything he thought... but they were not bad, if you leave out the somewhat arrogant manner of speech.. which may have simply been a result of his background and education. You can find these articles in some old Bridge Worlds if you can lay your hands on them. I also think it was Reese who said (I am paraphrasing) that if a real expert told an average player what he was thinking throughout a hand, the average player would refuse to beleive it.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#8 User is offline   Badmonster 

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Posted 2007-January-25, 21:07

mikeh, on Jan 25 2007, 11:41 AM, said:

If you are just beginning your exploration of bridge, playing a lot of count signals will help you and your partner... and most of the opps against whom you will play will either not follow your carding very well or not maximize the advantage that constant-count defenders give to declarer...so it is probably a good approach and will certainly make you learn to count faster. However, and this is a big however, as you advance in your ability to draw inferences, your need for count carding should diminish... and you will become a tougher opp if you cut back, drastically, on giving count.

This is such a great thought. I wish more of the partners I encountered would pay attention to count. Not that I wouldn't still screw it up, mind you, but I'd like the oppotunity to screw it up and learn from that.
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#9 User is offline   pdmunro 

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Posted 2007-January-26, 07:10

I find what helps me to count the cards is to think in terms of Aces, Kings and Queens (AKQ) during the bidding. I have rephrased SAYC in AKQ terms for myself. For instance, if my partner opens at the 1-level, I place 4+ AKQ in his hand. And if my RHO makes a vulnerable overcall at the 1-level, I place 3 AKQ in his hand.

I find that thinking in terms of Aces, Kings and Queens, rather than just points, helps my bidding and play.
Peter . . . . AKQ . . . . K = 3 points = 1 trick
"Of course wishes everybody to win and play as good as possible, but it is a hobby and a game, not war." 42 (BBO Forums)
"If a man speaks in the forest and there are no women around to hear is he still wrong?" anon
"Politics: an inadequate substitute for bridge." John Maynard Keynes
"This is how Europe works, it dithers, it delays, it makes cowardly small steps towards the truth and at some point that which it has admonished as impossible it embraces as inevitable." Athens University economist Yanis Varoufakis
"Krypt3ia @ Craig, dude, don't even get me started on you. You have posted so far two articles that I and others have found patently clueless. So please, step away from the keyboard before you hurt yourself." Comment on infosecisland.com
"Doing is the real hard part" Emma Coats (formerly from Pixar)
"I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again." Oscar Wilde
"Assessment, far more than religion, has become the opiate of the people" Patricia Broadfoot, Uni of Gloucestershire, UK
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#10 User is offline   pdmunro 

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Posted 2007-January-27, 07:10

These are some of the thought processes that are involved in playing bridge for me.

----------------------------------
Long-term Memory Tasks
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Some years back, I set myself these long-term memory tasks:
- Memorize hand/suit patterns: e.g. 5431 5332 6331 6421
- Rephrase SAYC in terms of Aces, Kings and Queens (AKQ)

Once at the table, there are a number of short-term memory tasks to be fitted into the 5-7 minutes involved in playing a hand. I have listed some of them below.

-----------------------------------
Short-term Memory Tasks
-----------------------------------

During the bidding
- guess at each players' suit distribution and AKQ holding

As declarer, on the opening lead
Guess at the facts
- guess the distribution of the AKQ's of the opponents
- guess the distribution of trumps around the table
- make a mental note of the opening lead, and guess the distribution of that suit

Make a plan
- work out my losers
- work out the missing key cards (Klinger hint)
- work out whether to ruff or to promote

As declarer, at the end of each trick pause to do a mental check list (Klinger hint)
Take in the facts, improve my guesses
- check off which key cards have been played and which remain
- same with trumps

Modify my plan if necessary

As defender, prior to the opening lead
Guess at the facts
- guess declarer's suit distribution
- guess partner's AKQ's

Make a plan
- if declarer wants to ruff, lead trumps
- imagine cards in p's hand that can defeat the contract

As defender, at the end of each trick
Take in the facts, improve my guesses
- countdown the remaing cards in declarer's hand in all suits
- guess who has the missing key cards

Modify my plan if necessary
----------------------

I have indicated two types of tasks: guessing at the facts; and making a plan. In the past, I have been concentrated on making a plan. But the more I first make educated guesses about the distribution of AKQ's and the suits, the more I feel that I am playing good bridge.

Part of my problem is that I am not consistent. I wonder if I should have a particular sequence of steps that I should go through. I am trying to work out how to train my mind.
Peter . . . . AKQ . . . . K = 3 points = 1 trick
"Of course wishes everybody to win and play as good as possible, but it is a hobby and a game, not war." 42 (BBO Forums)
"If a man speaks in the forest and there are no women around to hear is he still wrong?" anon
"Politics: an inadequate substitute for bridge." John Maynard Keynes
"This is how Europe works, it dithers, it delays, it makes cowardly small steps towards the truth and at some point that which it has admonished as impossible it embraces as inevitable." Athens University economist Yanis Varoufakis
"Krypt3ia @ Craig, dude, don't even get me started on you. You have posted so far two articles that I and others have found patently clueless. So please, step away from the keyboard before you hurt yourself." Comment on infosecisland.com
"Doing is the real hard part" Emma Coats (formerly from Pixar)
"I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again." Oscar Wilde
"Assessment, far more than religion, has become the opiate of the people" Patricia Broadfoot, Uni of Gloucestershire, UK
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#11 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2007-January-27, 15:46

In one of Rosenkrantz' more recent books, his characters are discussing a hand. The student says something like "so I guessed where the Queen would be, and the finesse worked." The mentor said "We do not guess...." In particular, guessing at each player's holding is a waste of effort during the bidding. If they only pass, you have no facts to go on save that each has 13 cards. OTOH, the bidding will give you clues, and with those clues you can narrow things down, usually. For example, if I open 1, and my partner replies 1NT, obviously she has a balanced hand, but more than that - she has no four card suit other than clubs, and she has exactly four clubs. IOW she is 3=3=3=4. Why not some 2-3-3=5? Because with 5 clubs, she'd raise clubs. Also she has 8-10 points - with 6 or 7, she'd raise clubs or pass. If I open one of a major, and my partner raises, I know we have at least 8 trumps. If we have exactly 8, opponents' distributions are limited to 3-2, 4-1, or 5-0. Keeping all that in mind is a lot easier than coming up with a guess that's likely to be wrong, and later having to remember whether you based some idea of an opponent's hand on facts, or on a guess.

Similarly, you can tell a lot from the opening lead, but keep it to what you know - don't toss in a bunch of guesses.

I would suggest this: When you pick up your hand, count your HCP, and note your exact distribution, not just your hand pattern (eg. 4=5=1=3, not just "some 5-4-3-1"). Then close your hand, close your eyes, and visualize your hand. Where are your HCP? What's your distribution? Do you have a good hand or a bad one for your point count? Now decide what you would open, and what you might rebid, particularly over partner's worst likely response - say he bids your singleton, for example.

Once that comes automatically, listen to the bidding. I mean really listen. Work out the bidder's likely point count and distribution, and do the same kind of visualization as you did with your own hand. Then, as the bidding continues, refine your estimates (you are not guessing - guessing is easy. Working out what's really going on is hard work. Until you're an expert, if you don't "feel the strain" after a session, you're not working hard enough. :)

Same thing during the play - not every card will be significant (except perhaps at expert level), but every card will tell you something, so listen to what they're telling you.

As you progress, try to visualize one opponent's hand, then add the other. You're gonna see dummy soon enough, and that will provide a check on your visualization of that hand. It will also give you some information about the remaining hidden hands, as well. If you thought a certain player had five spades, but between you and dummy you see nine, you have to revise your estimate of that certain player's hand. Dummy can tell you a lot. ;)
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