[pbleighton]

http://www.newyorker...s/060710fa_fact

Great article.

Peter

[Winstonm]

I am an American, but I am weary of the U.S. strong-arming the world with war and threats of war. Where does it say a sovereign nation must have U.S. approval for every decision made? Of course, at this point in time war is the only U.S. export that does not have a trade imbalance.

P.S. The one thing that amazes me about this situation is the giant collective yawn that appeared after Bush threatened limited nuclear retaliation.
Iran is not as big of threat as is Bush it would appear. What's next? Shall we invade Argentina? Nuke North Korea? It seems Bush would like to annihilate eveyone on the planet except you and him and he's not too sure about you....will have to wait until that crackerjack intelligence comes in from the CIA to know for sure. After all, you may have a weapon of mass destruction shoved up your....

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on Jul 4 2006, 01:58 PM, said:

I am an American, but I am weary of the U.S. strong-arming the world with war and threats of war.  Where does it say a sovereign nation must have U.S. approval for every decision made? 

you're right, of course, that other sovereign nations must formulate policy in the same way as we, supposedly, do... ie, they must act in what they perceive to be their own best interest, weighing that interest against myriad other factors

Quote

Iran is not as big of threat as is Bush it would appear.  What's next?  Shall we invade Argentina?  Nuke North Korea?

for the sake of discussion, imagine that iran has not only nuclear weapons but the means by which to deliver them (icbms)... would such an occurance be a clear and present danger, in your view? ... if so, at what point in time would you act, as a leader of your country? the same for n. korea... are they, with the weapons and delivery system they either have or are representing they have, a threat not only to the usa but to interests/allies of ours? if so, would you act if it was a matter of nat'l interest?

while i do agree with rodney king's "why can't we all just get along?" i don't see it happening anytime soon

[mike777]

Does not every country, for that matter any private citizen have the moral and legal right to own nuclear weapons?

If not where do you draw the line and who draws it?

At the very least leaders of major countries need to think about, draw up plans and answer this question. We do not pay them to shrug, put their heads in the sand and say... "What, me worry?"

What I find laughable is how anyone and I do mean anyone takes the word embargo seriously. That is nothing but a joke.

[luke warm]

mike777, on Jul 4 2006, 04:03 PM, said:

Does not every country, for that matter  any private citizen have the moral and legal right to own nuclear weapons?

excellent point... why would you not want your neighbor to own a nuke? hell, we don't even want them owning guns... why would that be? are they, maybe, irresponsible? dangerous? flat out nuts? whatever they are, can a whole block be the same? a neighborhood? a city? a state? a country?

nah

[macaw]

Why would you want anybody to own a nuke, or even build nuclear power plants? Have we learned nothing from Three Mile Island and Chernobel?

[mike777]

macaw, on Jul 4 2006, 04:27 PM, said:

Why would you want anybody to own a nuke, or even build nuclear power plants?  Have we learned nothing from Three Mile Island and Chernobel?

Goldfinger, Blofeld for a few....I can think of lots of people who may want to own a personal Nuke. Are you really serious in asking this?

There must be at least one guy in the Middle East who would want to own one for his family room.

As for Three mile island and Chernobel, no what point...more people are killed in the coal or oil industry, more land is fouled..what point are you making?

[Winstonm]

Quote

for the sake of discussion, imagine that iran has not only nuclear weapons but the means by which to deliver them (icbms)... would such an occurance be a clear and present danger, in your view? ... if so, at what point in time would you act, as a leader of your country? the same for n. korea... are they, with the weapons and delivery system they either have or are representing they have, a threat not only to the usa but to interests/allies of ours? if so, would you act if it was a matter of nat'l interest?

I would think not. First of all, even Iran would understand that a limited first strike would mean the end of Iran in a U.S. retaliatory strike. The same for N. Korea. Only at a time when they reached a point of equality of destruction could they be considered a legitimate threat. The U.S.S.R. reached that point and the U.S. did not go to war with them - neither would the U.S. go to war with Iran or N. Korea under a similar situation. Mutual annhilation is not winning. It is co-losing and Iran and N. Korea are aware of this as well as was the U.S.S.R.

If Iran wants to develope nuclear energy, why not offer them our help and technology in exchange for their oil at $50 a barrel? Keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer.

[mike777]

This assumption of mutual annihilation is a big one. I see no basis for it. I have heard of no announced or implied policy if you kill one million americans we will kill 75 million of you? In fact that would shock me if we did that.

If they give the technology to some other group that uses the bomb, even assuming we can ever prove it, we are going to wipe Iran or NK off the map and not kill other people with the fallout? Where and when did we imply that and how do we even do that?

In any event the Dear Leader is really nuts in any sense of the word and the Iranian President has publicly announced he wishes to bring about the end of the world for his religion. Well not really The End, just the next chapter......

Keep in mind even in the Christian Religion there is life after death and a world after the End of the World. In fact Billions and Billions believe this to be the truth.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Jul 6 2006, 04:40 AM, said:

Keep in mind even in the Christian Religion there is life after death and a world after the End of the World. In fact Billions and Billions believe this to be the truth.

Quite honestly, the Jesus freaks scare me every bit as much as the Islamic extremists.

There a lot of people who view this whole conflict as a civil war between two rather insane fundementalist sects...

[Winstonm]

hrothgar, on Jul 5 2006, 08:46 PM, said:

mike777, on Jul 6 2006, 04:40 AM, said:

Keep in mind even in the Christian Religion there is life after death and a world after the End of the World.  In fact Billions and Billions believe this to be the truth.

Quite honestly, the Jesus freaks scare me every bit as much as the Islamic extremists.

There a lot of people who view this whole conflict as a civil war between two rather insane fundementalist sects...

Yes, there is no one so judgemental as one who lives in constant fear of eternal judgement, regardless of which religious views are held.

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on Jul 5 2006, 08:26 PM, said:

Quote

for the sake of discussion, imagine that iran has not only nuclear weapons but the means by which to deliver them (icbms)... would such an occurance be a clear and present danger, in your view? ... if so, at what point in time would you act, as a leader of your country? the same for n. korea... are they, with the weapons and delivery system they either have or are representing they have, a threat not only to the usa but to interests/allies of ours? if so, would you act if it was a matter of nat'l interest?

I would think not. First of all, even Iran would understand that a limited first strike would mean the end of Iran in a U.S. retaliatory strike. The same for N. Korea.

ok, i understand the sentiment... it assumes rationality of purpose, and i'm not convinced that's a safe assumption to make... but you did answer the question, that you don't consider nuclear weapons in iran or n. korea to be a danger, nor do you believe either occurance to be against the nat'l interests of the u.s. ... even so, i'm sure you can see how and why others, who might just possibly be in possession of more information, might disagree

as an aside, what are your views on gun control here in the u.s.?

Quote

Quite honestly, the Jesus freaks scare me every bit as much as the Islamic extremists

extremists are scary, regardless of their religion or political philosophy; however, i don't know what is meant by "Jesus freaks" ... is that a term for all christians, or for a segment of christianity whose acts are terrorist in nature?

Quote

Yes, there is no one so judgemental as one who lives in constant fear of eternal judgement, regardless of which religious views are held

that's probably true, but isn't an accurate portrayal of a christian's views... i know of no christian who lives in fear of anything, much less eternal judgement... any judgement rendered on a christian was done over 2000 years ago