[Flame]

Hi
Is the reverse by responder in a sayc like system forcing to game or just one round force ?
example: 1♦-2♣-2♦-2♥.
Does it matter if the first response was a one level ?
example : 1♦-1♥-2♦-2♠.

[han]

Yes, forcing to game.

[paulg]

Flame, on May 23 2006, 07:01 AM, said:

Hi
Is the reverse by responder in a sayc like system forcing to game or just one round force ?
example: 1♦-2♣-2♦-2♥.
Does it matter if the first response was a one level ?
example : 1♦-1♥-2♦-2♠.

Consider what responder might be attempting with this auction.

Opener has denied four spades, so the 2♠ bid is likely to be either (i) a 5-6 majors hand or (ii) a stop for notrump purposes (known as a 'fragment').

The only reason for the bid not to be game forcing is (i) you have a weak 5-6 or (ii) when you wish to stop in 2NT or 3♦.

Experience shows that aiming for 2NT does not carry a high reward, and with weak 5-6 hands it is better to rebid 2♥.

So it is better to play 2♠ as game forcing.

Paul

[Flame]

cardsharp, on May 23 2006, 04:02 AM, said:

Opener has denied four spades, so the 2♠ bid is likely to be either (i) a 5-6 majors hand or (ii) a stop for notrump purposes (known as a 'fragment').

On the first sequence opener didnt deny 4♥ or 4♠s
1♦-2♣ for most partnership bidding 2♠ now is GF.
so 1♦-2♣-2♦ doesnt deny 4cards major.
Playing 1♦-2♣-2♦-2♥ as GF, means either we lose the 4-4 fit when opener is minimum and responder is not GF (could still easily miss game)
or that reponder with 4M5♣ should bid 1M unless he is GF.
I dont think I like any of those much.

[jdonn]

Flame, on May 23 2006, 10:49 AM, said:

cardsharp, on May 23 2006, 04:02 AM, said:

Opener has denied four spades, so the 2♠ bid is likely to be either (i) a 5-6 majors hand or (ii) a stop for notrump purposes (known as a 'fragment').

On the first sequence opener didnt deny 4♥ or 4♠s
1♦-2♣ for most partnership bidding 2♠ now is GF.
so 1♦-2♣-2♦ doesnt deny 4cards major.
Playing 1♦-2♣-2♦-2♥ as GF, means either we lose the 4-4 fit when opener is minimum and responder is not GF (could still easily miss game)
or that reponder with 4M5♣ should bid 1M unless he is GF.
I dont think I like any of those much.

And in a shocking twist, we have discovered that sayc stinks because of either lack of forcing bids, or lack of clarity on what is forcing! Who knew!!

[cherdano]

Flame, on May 23 2006, 05:49 PM, said:

cardsharp, on May 23 2006, 04:02 AM, said:

Opener has denied four spades, so the 2♠ bid is likely to be either (i) a 5-6 majors hand or (ii) a stop for notrump purposes (known as a 'fragment').

On the first sequence opener didnt deny 4♥ or 4♠s
1♦-2♣ for most partnership bidding 2♠ now is GF.
so 1♦-2♣-2♦ doesnt deny 4cards major.
Playing 1♦-2♣-2♦-2♥ as GF, means either we lose the 4-4 fit when opener is minimum and responder is not GF (could still easily miss game)
or that reponder with 4M5♣ should bid 1M unless he is GF.
I dont think I like any of those much.

I think responding 1M with 4M5♣ and invitational values is standard.

[Flame]

cherdano, on May 23 2006, 11:08 AM, said:

I think responding 1M with 4M5♣ and invitational values is standard.

I dont think so because you will most likely have a problem in your second bid.
1D-1S-1NT what will youbid with 5♣4♠ on most system you cant show your shape (you could be 7♣4♠ and 9 hcp...)
1D-1S-2D now 3♣ would be GF so again you can show it.
even on good day when it goes 1D-1H-1S you cant do but, 3♣ would not show 5-4 now and 2C is 4st forcing to game for most.
So basically if you bid 1 first you are going to show this hand as a balance hand with 4 card major which is hardly what you got.
Maybe its best but to say it we need to see the problem with the other way to play 1D-2C-2D-2H with only invite+.

[foo]

Flame, on May 23 2006, 02:01 AM, said:

Hi
Is the reverse by responder in a sayc like system forcing to game or just one round force ?
example: 1♦-2♣-2♦-2♥.
Does it matter if the first response was a one level ?
example : 1♦-1♥-2♦-2♠.

This is as tight a summary as I can come up with quickly.

1= in SA a Reverse BY OPENER AFTER A ONE LEVEL RESPONSE is a ONE ROUND FORCE ONLY. Some (most) of Responder's rebids set a GF, some of Opener's rebids set a GF. (1m-1S;2H or etc)
1a= Any new suit introduced by Responder sets a GF.

1b= Any raise of Opener's Reverse suit (1C-1M;2D-3D) sets a GF.

1c= The only responses that do =not= set a GF are responder rebidding their suit as cheaply as possible or rebidding 2N.
These responses say "Opener, I may pass your next bid unless it is GF"

{There are various gadgets that some play in Reverse auctions that can change much of this. This is the default.}


2= in SA a Reverse by Opener after a 2/1 is GF.
(1D-2C;2M or etc shows ~15+ HCP)


3= in SA any Reverse by Responder after an initial response that might show a minimum shows at least an opening hand and is GF
(1m-1H;1N-2S or 1m-1H;2m-2S or etc)

3a= Therefore a Reverse that does not go past 2N after a 2/1 is a 1RF, not a GF
(1D-2C;2D-2M or etc could show a 10-11 HCP hand with 5+C and 4+M)

[Flame]

thanks for all the replays

[HeartA]

in both cases responder is reversing and is forcing to game.

[foo]

HeartA, on May 23 2006, 04:50 PM, said:

in both cases responder is reversing and is forcing to game.

"Is the reverse by responder in a sayc like system forcing to game or just one round force ?
example1: 1♦-2C-2♦-2M.
Does it matter if the first response was a one level ?
example2 : 1♦-1H-2♦-2S."

The 1st example is a 1RF because responder showed more than a min w/ his 1st response (a 2/1).

The 2nd example is GF.

So the exact answer to Flame's 2nd question is "Yes, it matters."