[pbleighton]

This post is written from the U.S. perspective. Others are welcome, I know that immigration is an issue in Europe, for example.

Certain members of the Republican Party have recently been pushing harsh measures on illegal immigration (this could well be the result of their polling difficulties). These are primarily directed at the (mostly Mexican) immigrants who come over the Mexican border. There has also been a tightening up of legal immigration over the last five years.

Illegal immigrants have been a fact of life, and of our economy, for decades. It is IMO a demand side problem - jobs are available up here which, while at the bottom of our economy, pay many times what is available in their countries. There has been a dual view in the U.S. - we have accepted the economic benefits of low wage imported labor, while a majority of the population has resented the people who do the work. There is also a historic resentment against the current crop of legal immigrants - see the attitudes against the Irish, Italians, etc. There is a large racial component in the attitudes of many of the harshest critics of the illegal immigrants, but the number of reasons is long.

The negative measures proposed include legal sanctions against illegal immigrants, against people and companies who hire them, and building a 1,500 mile U.S. version of the Berlin Wall (they don't call it that, but that is what it would be) along the Mexican border.

I don't think there is an "immigration problem" myself (though I would prefer to see legal immigration and work visas made far easier - for one thing, get rid of the current quotas - this would get rid of most illegal immigration), but a majority of voters disagree, and so therefore some legislation will probably be passed this year (it is likely to be both offensive and ineffectual, but that's politics).

Do you think there is a problem, and if so, what do you think should be done about it?

Peter

[Chamaco]

This issue is a very old one and indeed a very difficult one.

The coexistence of groups with different habits and culture is relatively easy where the spaces are large and the communities can choose to have a parallel life, basically limiting the mutual contact.

But in cities where people from different cultures are forced to share the same buildings or blocks or streets, with daily conflicts, then problems can arise.

In my opinion it is not a matter of legality nor of economy, but a natural fact of nature: even between animals it works that way, groups that happen to live in the same area often shall end up battling for the ground, feeling or threatening an "invasion".

As much as we try not to behave like animals, the istinct is nevertheless there, and frequent tensions ensue in the facts of our society.

This is not ireversible however, and in the instances where the people learn to know and respect each other's habit, often the fear and agressivity drops down, and the seed of a real community is sown.

[mike777]

In general I am with Ed Kennedy that conservative Senator from Mass. on this one. . No, really I am with him on this one.

[pclayton]

I live in a border state so I see the effects of this issue on a daily basis.

I'm basically for open borders. Immigrants typically fill an integral role by taking jobs for very low wages. Should they be required to file US tax returns when they are making less than $20,000? Probably not, but I am in favor of some guest worker program that requires, at a minimum, that they carry auto insurance and somehome pay some level of modest taxes to help fund infrastructure. If they have children attending US schools, then they also need to pay for these services.

Closing borders to help the war on terror is a misappropriation of resources.

[pbleighton]

"I live in a border state so I see the effects of this issue on a daily basis."

Yeah, I lived in California too (for 18 years, right out of college), and this is what formed my opinions on this issue.

Peter

[Al_U_Card]

Perhaps the US is trying to avoid their historical lesson about agressive and insistant foreigners coming to their country seeking asylum and prosperity. After all, the original inhabitants fell prey to newcomers over 300 years ago and not a lot has changed since then...

[DrTodd13]

The concepts of borders and countries are fundamentally antithetical to human freedom. If you couldn't cross the border between California and Oregon to seek employment you'd be pissed off but many people who would feel that way would think it was ok to call something a "national" border and then restrict movement across it. There is no fundamental difference between state borders and national borders except that there is an organized crime unit known as the US government that dominates everyone within the "national borders." People are fearful of labor competition and are more racially and culturally biased than they'd like to admit. One just instinct that people have is that people come here and some of them start living off social services rather than earning their own way. If you want to come and work, we should have totally open borders.

[han]

I absolutely agree with Dr. Todd, it's almost scary.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

there was a great article in the herald tribune.
The tenor was:
Create walls to controll the flow of immigration,
but create gates, which allow a legal immigration.

The reason for the wall: mass immigration lowers the
income for the lower incomes, which may create social
problems in the US ( the gab between the well off and
the poor did widen in the last couple of years)
But you need the gates as well.

The article was also in favour to legalize the status of the
illegal immigrants lving in the US for a certain amount of
years, which is ethical thing to do.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[sceptic]

Whilst imigration has some benefits, cheap labour for one and helps to keep down wage costs, I think there are other issues. in the UK, the jobs available are not the well paid jobs, they are usually the jobs that the Inhabitants don't want, i.e road sweeper, warehouseman etc etc, probably why they don't want it, is each generation wants better for their kids and they encourage them to do well at school, go to university and get a well paid white collar job. so this leaves less people wanting all the crap jobs.

We have imigrants from Poland and other old eastern block countries, Africa and Afganistan to name a few places, these people are here to earn money and get a better life, or they could be here to earn money and send it home to build a better future for themselves in their own country at a later date. I can understand this and would probaly do the same in their position.

I do not think open borders are the answer, that allows anyone in (the UK, is totally incapable of managing the influx) and it is causing big problems, with housing , health, education and social issues, I beleive it is just the scale of people they allow in. So if you are going to allow imigration, you should allow set amounts in.

There is the undesirable element, crooks, organised gangs and general freeloaders,that need kicking out, no idea how, but we should be doing it

there are some hate mongers here and we are afraid to kick them out in case we offend these people, what a load of b******t, just kick them out and if people don't like it, let them leave also, we offer them jobs and some where to live, the least they can do is show us some respect.

One major issue I have personally is, that whilst we allow them in, we are shipping out jobs to their countries and making less jobs available, these jobs appear to be being taken away from the traditional inhabitant (and I beleive this is fundementally wrong)(I blame the government for this not the imigrants)

We should all try and help the persecuted and we should all try and adapt to make them welcome, we should not have to give up our own standards and own ways to accomodate them.

open borders to workers, NOT shirkers

another thing is a struggling country (take an african nation you know has problems) we are allowing all the young fit and health into our countries, do you not think this is exactly the type of person we want to stay in that country and help build it up into a successful nation?.

Just allow work visas, why do they have to have the right to live in another country when they are needed in their own country

No imigrant should be allowed social security at all, unless they have gone through a vetting procedure at an embassy in their country and given legal documentation to enter our countries as a useful member of society

we have medical tourists, they come here with HIV (I use this example as where I live the HIV population has increased 5 fold over the last 4 years (and these stats can be backed up) 80% of new cases are africans, they drain our resources in the national health, why should we allow them in, when we do our best to send the medicines out to them.

and stop the bloody student visas, they are so abused it is untrue

I base my opinions on working with imigrants ( over the last 4 years probably 1,000 on temp and permenant basis) and learning about them, there are some great ones and would become an asset to the country they decide to settle in, but there are an awful lot that don't deserve anything thing except a tickets back home.

[luke warm]

pbleighton, on Apr 20 2006, 09:36 AM, said:

Certain members of the Republican Party have recently been pushing harsh measures on illegal immigration (this could well be the result of their polling difficulties). These are primarily directed at the (mostly Mexican) immigrants who come over the Mexican border. There has also been a tightening up of legal immigration over the last five years.

actually, the latest poll showed right at 80% of the american people favored stronger enforcement of existing laws (the term *is* illegal alien, after all)... so it's hardly a partisan issue... but my main bitch about it is the fact that mexico is yelling at the usa whenever tougher laws are mentioned (or whenever enforcing the ones we have are mentioned) while their own policies on illegal immigration are never looked at... here are a few examples

according to an official translation published by the Organization of American States, the Mexican constitution includes the following restrictions:

Pursuant to Article 33, "Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country." This ban applies, among other things, to participation in demonstrations and the expression of opinions in public about domestic politics like those much in evidence in Los Angeles, New York and elsewhere in recent days.

Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones. Article 32: "Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable."

Jobs for which Mexican citizenship is considered "indispensable" include, pursuant to Article 32, bans on foreigners, immigrants, and even naturalized citizens of Mexico serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports.

Article 55 denies immigrants the right to become federal lawmakers. A Mexican congressman or senator must be "a Mexican citizen by birth." Article 91 further stipulates that immigrants may never aspire to become cabinet officers as they are required to be Mexican by birth. Article 95 says the same about Supreme Court justices.

In accordance with Article 130, immigrants - even legal ones - may not become members of the clergy, either.

Foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights. For example, Article 27 states, "Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters, and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters."

Article 11 guarantees federal protection against "undesirable aliens resident in the country." What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen's arrests. Article 16 states, "In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may arrest the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities." In other words, Mexico grants its citizens the right to arrest illegal aliens and hand them over to police for prosecution. Imagine the Minutemen exercising such a right!

The Mexican constitution states that foreigners - not just illegal immigrants - may be expelled for any reason and without due process. According to Article 33, "the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action."

The Bottom Line

As the immigration debate in the Senate moves into a decisive phase this week, legislators who believe America's southern border must be secured, the Nation's existing immigration laws enforced and illegal aliens not rewarded with permanent residency and a direct path to citizenship are being sharply criticized and, in some cases, defamed as bigots and xenophobes. Yet, even their maximalist positions generally pale in comparison with the treatment authorized by the Mexican constitution. Would they favor having the U.S. impose the same restrictions on immigrants - legal and illegal - that Mexico imposes on their counterparts there?

[mike777]

Yes Mexico has some very harsh laws.
1) deport and ban naturalized citizens from holding office and even joining the clergy.
2) soldiers on its southern borders.
3) They kick them out fast in Mexico.

With all that said this is the USA and I am very impressed how millions?, demonstrate peacefully for change and influence us all. How we get so lucky to have 12 or 25 million excellent candidates for new citizens truly makes us God Blessed. Let Old Europe and and all the Old countries keep these people out, let Japan keep their race pure, so they will come here.

I lived in North SD, Carlsbad, for many years, yes it put a strain on the very southern border towns so let's send them some tax dollars.

[pbleighton]

"Let Old Europe and and all the Old countries keep these people out, let Japan keep their race pure, so they will come here"

This was my experience in California.

Peter