[mr1303]

No, actually I don't. But I have to write an article on it. So those of you who do play it through choice, and have as a result fallen in love with it, would like to post some of the benefits of a 12-14 NT, preferably with some example hands, that would be most helpful.

[whereagles]

A nice advantage is, in my point of view, that it allows you to support a minor suit opening on 3 cards. If pard hasn't got 5 of the minor, he'll rebid 2NT to show the 15-17 hand and you're ok.

The preemptive effect is also nice, but I really enjoy the ability to support the minor.

[Gerben42]

Here are some pluses:

* It simplifies auctions when we open a minor. You can make light balanced invites with 1♣ - 2NT for example, showing as few as 10 - 11 HCP. Partner will signoff in 3♣ with long ♣ and an unbalanced 12 - count. Another example is that raises like 1♣ 1♠ 2♠ have a higher upper bound, leaving more space for the big hands.
* When holding a weak NT you can preempt the auction. When at most tables the auction goes 1x - 1y - 1NT you just bid 1NT and that's it. Now lead please
* It is hard to bid against the weak NT. When opponents open a strong NT you know that it is less likely that it is our hand. After a weak NT you don't know, and if it goes 1NT p p you are in a tricky situation with say 13 HCP. Say opener also has 13, then you should bid if partner has 10 and responder 4, but better you do not if it is the other way around!
* When we are outgunned we are better placed in our 1NTx contracts than the strong notrumpers, even though it is more likely that we reach 1NT. 12 + 5 plays much better than 16 + 1. BTW these 1NTxs are often misdefended as well.

If you don't like the weak NT yourself I won't tell you about the weaknesses: you probably know them.

[ArcLight]

Danny Kleinman discusses the effects of different NT ranges in his excellent book The No Trump Zone. Changing an NT range has an effect on the other bids in your system, and these might not be obvious at first inspection. Also, it depends on the quality of your opponents. Players may not be familiar with playing against the weak NT and may not defend/bid correctly. Using the Weak NT may give you an advantage just because its different. Players who are not advanced may think they can penalty double or bid over the Weak NT with impunity.

[the saint]

A lot of people have said a lot of things. I'm just going to say the one thing that Mark knows I'm going to say.

I LOVE MY WEAK NO TRUMP AND MY 4 CARD MAJORS AND I'M NOT ASHAMED! Maybe one day he will admit it too!!

[Limey_p]

The chief advantage to the weak NT is that there are more of them! you get to use all your fun toys (stayman, transfers etc) more often.

[EricK]

Limey_p, on Mar 25 2006, 04:34 AM, said:

The chief advantage to the weak NT is that there are more of them! you get to use all your fun toys (stayman, transfers etc) more often.

You can of course play all your gadgets after a 1NT rebid, so this is not a particularly good reason.

The benefits of a weak NT as I see it are as follows (in no particular order):

1. It is pre-emptive - It will often be the opps' hand. Don't give them an easy 1M overcall.

2. It guarantes some "bite" to all your other 1 level openings. They will be either shapely or have extra strength.

3. It poses a problem for opps in that they need to compete the part score but also find their games.

4. 1NT in practice makes more often than it should - especially if there have been no suit bids on the way there.

[Wackojack]

Everything that has been said, plus no phoney 1 club openings. So it comes closest to a natural system.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Everything that has been said, plus no phoney 1 club openings. So it comes closest to a natural system.

This comment means what exactly? A weak NT of course goes very well with a 2+♣ 1♣ opening bid. Being closest to a natural system is not a goal in itself.

[david_c]

IMO the weak NT is a pre-empt, and weak NT systems make life harder both for you and for your opponents. So it was no surprise that in Mark's previous article, "why I hate the weak NT", the example hand given was 15 HCP balanced, as this is a hand which is difficult to handle in a weak NT system. In contrast, if you want to explain "why I love the weak NT" you need to give examples of hands which are difficult for your opponents to bid. A classic example would be about 11 points with a 5-card major suit, where it's easy to miss a part-score. (I would say the part-score hands are the most frequent gains for the weak NT. It's also perfectly possible for opponents to miss games, which is more spectacular but doesn't come up anything like as often.)

[Free]

Playing weak NT makes you bid more than playing std. It's also more logic imo to play weak. Your 1-level openings now become 15+ balanced or 11+ with some distribution, so basicly they're more 'solid' related to playing strength.

Disadvantages are clear: you miss a Major fit from time to time. I've played 1NT-1 for a bottom score on a big tournament where most people played 2♥+1! On the other hand, you give a lot less information to your opponents if you get a fast arrival 1NT-all pass auction.

All by all, I think it has a slight advantage, but it's not big at all! It also has to fit your system! That's why lots of worldclass players play another NT range. If there was a clear advantage, everyone would start to play it, so apparently nobody is convinced enough...

Erick: playing your NT structure after a 1NT rebid is imo quite useless since opener AND responder already showed some distribution already... Better take advantage of that knowledge.

[kgr]

I prefer that I play weak NT and my partner strong NT, gives me more value for the table money

[hotShot]

Looking at the probabilities you will see, that if you open weak NT your 1minor bids will get stronger on average. This means your partner will feel less pressure, if there was interference in the 2nd seat. If your NT is 12-14 than your 1m bid shows 12-14 with distributional extra strength or 15+.
2nd seat overcalls after a 1m opening, holding only a good 5card suit and 8+ HCP get more and more common. Overcalls on the 2 level usually need more strength. So each time your LHO will have to pass, his partner has to guess in 4th seat, who's side is stronger.
Most defences against NT openings are well designed for strong NTs. Just adapting the pointrage will produce an ineffective tool against the weak NT.
After a strong NT opening, the defending side will rarely miss game. 1-2 undertricks by the defence will often be a good result. Since they have the minoraty of points most of the time, handling unbalanced hands is important.
After a weak NT opening, the defending side might have game and undertricks will often produce a bad result. Since the defending side can easily have the majoraty of points, contracts on the 2 level (even those with only 7 trumps) will often be made. 4-4 / 4-3 fits especially in the minors will often not be found by the defending side.
So the defending side needs to have much better agreements playing against a weak NT, as they would need playing against a strong NT.
If they don't have the right tool, they will miss their partscores and games or overbid, missjudging their strength.

[pigpenz]

I love it playing with four card majors and natural raises of minors, raises of majors are pre emptive to a degree and same with minors, and usually when partner opens a minor you know he has something in it not xxx

[Limey_p]

Quote

You can of course play all your gadgets after a 1NT rebid, so this [frequency] is not a particularly good reason.

I completely disagree. Amount of gain or loss versus frequency gives a total expectation. Any discussion is incomplete if you ignore frequencies.

I play ordinary BWS-type methods which lead, imho, to good results. They come up more often when playing weak. How can you argue with that? he said throwing down the gauntlet

[P_Marlowe]

Limey_p, on Mar 25 2006, 03:25 PM, said:

Quote

You can of course play all your gadgets after a 1NT rebid, so this [frequency] is not a particularly good reason.

I completely disagree. Amount of gain or loss versus frequency gives a total expectation. Any discussion is incomplete if you ignore frequencies.

I play ordinary BWS-type methods which lead, imho, to good results. They come up more often when playing weak. How can you argue with that? he said throwing down the gauntlet

Hi,

the frequency goes up, but the usefulness of
certain methods go down.
E.g. Transfers with a strong NT work fine,
but if your NT gets weaker, Transfers loose
their strength.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hatchett]

Quote

E.g. Transfers with a strong NT work fine,
but if your NT gets weaker, Transfers loose
their strength

Only to a limted extent, surely most of the benefit of transfers is that you have two bids for the price of one eg you can show a raise to 2NT with a 5 card Major, show a major/minor GF below the level of 3NT etc.

[Sigi_BC84]

I have come across an interview with Eric Rodwell, in which he talks quite a bit about notrump ranges:

http://www.bridgemat...com/rodwell.htm

--Sigi

[EricK]

Free, on Mar 25 2006, 02:14 PM, said:

Playing your NT structure after a 1NT rebid is imo quite useless since opener AND responder already showed some distribution already... Better take advantage of that knowledge.

Let me expand somewhat on my one-liner.

It was in response to the claim that a weak NT was good because a) it is more frequent than a strong NT and that allows you to use your 1NT structure more often.

Now a) is obviously true, and is a benefit. But is not really a benefit. The point is that you can use an equally good strucutre over a 1NT rebid as you do over a 1NT opening. In fact, as you point out, you have more infirmation already, so you can play a better structure over a 1NT rebid (as you need to differentiate between fewer hand types for responder).

So although it would be silly to use precisely the same 1NT structure opposite the 1NT rebid, you still get all the benefits of using some 1NT structure. Thus the ability to use a 1NT structure more often is not an advantage of any particular strength range.

[cherdano]

I guess the biggest constructive plus of a weak NT is the auction 1m-1M-2M, it has a substantially higher minimum in playing strength, and thus it's easier to invite for responder. (And even if you end in 3M after a decline of an invite, that might be par.)

The fact that partner has extras when balanced is not a clear plus in competition. It is also a liability, since responder has to worry about game with 8 points. Playing strong NT, you can easily play all doubles as takeout. Playing weak NT, many doubles just have to show extra strength, i.e. "I have a strong NT" by opener and "I want to be in game opposite strong NT" by responder.

I am not convinced the higher frequency of the 1NT-AP auction is a gain. You may often be in the wrong contract.

Arend