[Gerben42]

Hi, anyone know about the WBF color coding? What constitutes a green system (natural)?

Think about it it's not as trivial as it may sound.

Is it still green if you play Benji (2♦ is artificial strong). What if 2♦ was Multi?

1-level: What if 1♣ could be two cards but really you are playing natural?

[joker_gib]

I think the colour coding just give a general description of the system as mentionned in the classification of system and the adding of a special convention doesn't mean that a system can pass from, for example, green to blue :

Classification of Systems
In order to facilitate recognition and handling, systems material will be identified by one or more of the following:

a WBF coloured sticker;
the appropriate name (hand printed or typed) colour;
a check mark on a convention card next to the appropriate colour - in keeping with the following descriptions:

Green
Natural


Blue
Strong Club/Strong Diamond, where one club/one diamond is always strong


Red
Artificial: this category includes all artificial systems that do not fall under the definition of Highly Unusual Methods (HUM) systems [see definition below], other than Strong Club/Strong Diamond systems (see 'Blue').

Examples would be a system where one club shows one of three types - a natural club suit, a balanced hand of a specific range, or a Strong Club opener; or a system in which the basic methods (other than the no trump range) vary according to position, vulnerability and the like; or a system that uses conventional 'weak' or 'multi-meaning' bids (with or without some weak option) in potentially contestable auctions, other than those described in the main part of the WBF Convention Booklet


Yellow
Highly Unusual Methods ('HUM') as defined above.

[Free]

I thought blue systems required a natural continuation. Otherwise MOSCITO is blue and we can play it at the lowest competition levels

Quote

1-level: What if 1♣ could be two cards but really you are playing natural?

Imo no, you're not since you open your shortest suit (4-4-3-2). But who am I...

Btw, do you know what happens with the local rules if a convention gets played more and more? They just allow it and make an exception. Nicest example is the multi! If you take a look at the rules, it's a pure brown sticker convention (no anchor suit). However in Belgium and the Netherlands it's very popular, so they allowed it. At first it was the multi described in a convention booklet (with strong 4441's), now they allow any multiway 2m bid which shows a weak-2M or a strong hand.

[FrancesHinden]

Playing a multi makes it a red system.
But any WBF event I've played in has allowed red systems.

[Gerben42]

Edit: cross-posting at the same time as Frances.

Thanks for your answer! Still it could be explained better.

BTW marking my system as green when it apparently wasn't never got me into trouble anyway.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Btw, do you know what happens with the local rules if a convention gets played more and more? They just allow it and make an exception.

In the Netherlands for some time an opening bid of 1♣ was considered natural if it promised at least two cards. No doubt this was to protect normal club players from wacky defences against a short ♣.

Then they went back to the international standard. I don't think that was right myself, you cannot let Holographic defence (now also printed in the Dutch Bridge Magazine!) to short ♣ loose on inexperienced players.

[Free]

Gerben42, on Jan 18 2006, 11:24 AM, said:

Quote

Btw, do you know what happens with the local rules if a convention gets played more and more? They just allow it and make an exception.

In the Netherlands for some time an opening bid of 1♣ was considered natural if it promised at least two cards. No doubt this was to protect normal club players from wacky defences against a short ♣.

Then they went back to the international standard. I don't think that was right myself, you cannot let Holographic defence (now also printed in the Dutch Bridge Magazine!) to short ♣ loose on inexperienced players.

If they all learn Berry's acol, then they don't play short ♣...

Btw same thing happens in Belgium: most top players play 5M4♦ system, but it's considered natural and you're not allowed any defense on it. They can open their shortest suit, but I can't bid my own shortest suit? Come on!
It's even so that 5M3m isn't considered as a Belgian standard system! However the Flemish people play 5M3m most of the time

[MickyB]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 18 2006, 10:19 AM, said:

Playing a multi makes it a red system.
But any WBF event I've played in has allowed red systems.

Frances - Joker's post gives the following as an example of a red system:

"a system that uses conventional 'weak' or 'multi-meaning' bids (with or without some weak option) in potentially contestable auctions, other than those described in the main part of the WBF Convention Booklet "

I believe the Multi is in the Convention Booklet, so it shouldn't be a red system?

[Flame]

Free, on Jan 18 2006, 04:27 AM, said:

I thought blue systems required a natural continuation. Otherwise MOSCITO is blue and we can play it at the lowest competition levels

Why not ?
Who said moscito isnt blue ?
I dont see any resson for it.

[Blofeld]

joker gib said:

or a system in which the basic methods (other than the no trump range) vary according to position, vulnerability and the like

Doesn't this make Drury a HUM ?

[Free]

Blofeld, on Jan 18 2006, 01:52 PM, said:

joker gib said:

or a system in which the basic methods (other than the no trump range) vary according to position, vulnerability and the like

Doesn't this make Drury a HUM ?

Remember what I said about local authorities allowing much played methods?

[david_c]

Flame, on Jan 18 2006, 01:32 PM, said:

Free, on Jan 18 2006, 04:27 AM, said:

I thought blue systems required a natural continuation.  Otherwise MOSCITO is blue and we can play it at the lowest competition levels 

Why not ?
Who said moscito isnt blue ?
I dont see any resson for it.

Surely the transfer openings make it red?

[david_c]

Blofeld, on Jan 18 2006, 01:52 PM, said:

joker gib said:

or a system in which the basic methods (other than the no trump range) vary according to position, vulnerability and the like

Doesn't this make Drury a HUM ?

Depends how you define "basic methods". Probably this is supposed to refer to things like changing from a strong club system to a natural system.

[Flame]

david_c, on Jan 19 2006, 08:14 AM, said:

Flame, on Jan 18 2006, 01:32 PM, said:

Free, on Jan 18 2006, 04:27 AM, said:

I thought blue systems required a natural continuation.  Otherwise MOSCITO is blue and we can play it at the lowest competition levels 

Why not ?
Who said moscito isnt blue ?
I dont see any resson for it.

Surely the transfer openings make it red?

I dont think so but we dont have any problem with red here in Israel.
edited
I think its more blue then red, but yes i might be wrong and its red.

This post has been edited by Flame: 2006-January-19, 13:44

[Free]

Even the Fantunes system is red, and this is one of the most natural systems I've ever seen... Luckily we also don't have problems with red systems over here

[Gerben42]

Well blue and red makes purple, so is it a purple system. And Fantunes is reddish green so maybe it's a brown system...

[Sigi_BC84]

Blofeld, on Jan 18 2006, 07:52 AM, said:

joker gib said:

or a system in which the basic methods (other than the no trump range) vary according to position, vulnerability and the like

Doesn't this make Drury a HUM ?

The original post didn't quote the proper section about HUMs in the WBF regulations (which is actually above the part of the text that had been quoted).

If you vary things other than Notrump range according to pos/vuln, your system becomes a RED system, but not HUM. This is why Moscito surely is NOT BLUE, but RED, because you open naturally in 3rd/4th while using transfer openings in 1st/2nd.

Systematically having lighter major openers in 3rd (which is the only reason to play Drury) strictly speaking turns your system RED, but obviously its not regarded by US bridge dictators because its so common to open light in 3rd.

I think the ACBL regulations are ridiculous to say the least. The WBF regs are a lot better. I wish they would use them here in Germany (they use something very similar, but not identical). German regs disallow varying openers in 3rd/4th except in the highest category which isn't offered very often (it allows HUMs, too).

Apart from that I agree with the people who promote maximum freedom in bidding. But unfortunately DrTodd is right when he observes that the majority will prevail, and the majority is 70+ yrs old and can't be bothered with playing against "new stuff". Bridge will not flourish unless more freedom is reintroduced.

--Sigi

[Sigi_BC84]

david_c, on Jan 19 2006, 08:20 AM, said:

Blofeld, on Jan 18 2006, 01:52 PM, said:

joker gib said:

or a system in which the basic methods (other than the no trump range) vary according to position, vulnerability and the like

Doesn't this make Drury a HUM ?

Depends how you define "basic methods". Probably this is supposed to refer to things like changing from a strong club system to a natural system.

Probably the problem is that "basic methods" is just inherently too fuzzy to be defined properly. Of course the reasoning behind such a restriction is to avoid having players play different methods accoring to pos/vul (in Poland it's legal and it's being done!). E.g. natural when opps white, precision when opps red or the like.

Unfortunately you ban some perfectly legitimate systems by simply stating that "you can't alter your openings according to position". Moscito is one good example. Everybody will agree that it is just another (fairly artificial) Strong Club system, but the relay openers just don't make sense in 3rd/4th, so of course you have to open differently there to make the system effective. This doesn't mean you're playing two different systems (since methods are fairly natural in this case, nobody would have trouble defending against them anyway).

--Sigi

[Sigi_BC84]

Flame, on Jan 19 2006, 01:33 PM, said:

david_c, on Jan 19 2006, 08:14 AM, said:

Flame, on Jan 18 2006, 01:32 PM, said:

Free, on Jan 18 2006, 04:27 AM, said:

I thought blue systems required a natural continuation.  Otherwise MOSCITO is blue and we can play it at the lowest competition levels 

Why not ?
Who said moscito isnt blue ?
I dont see any resson for it.

Surely the transfer openings make it red?

I dont think so but we dont have any problem with red here in Israel.
edited
I think its more blue then red, but yes i might be wrong and its red.

I've seen the conv card Marston uses and it says RED. So there's no doubt about this (besides the regs being quite clear about it in this case anyway: you alter "basic methods" according to position of opener).

--Sigi