[Al_U_Card]

Scoring: MP

P - P?- P - 2 NT
P - ??

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2NT shows 20-21. You have 3S MSS available as well as 4C Gerber...

1) Do you agree with the initial pass?

2) Do you make a slam try and how do you proceed?

[inquiry]

Yes, I agree with the initial pass. The suit is not up to what is required for a preemptive opening vul, and the hand with those two red jacks is not quite up to an opening 1♣ bid.

Playing BBO Advanced, I would bid 3♠ - transfer to 3NT, then bid 4♣ showing a one suiter with clubs and slam interest, and then await further develops.

Whoops.. missed the minor suit stayman idea (prefer 4♠ to 3♠ for that, but ok). In this case, I would bid 3♣ followed by 4♣.

[Robert]

Hello everyone

My system methods require me to open 3Cs with this hand. Partner has several ways to bid over my 3C bid. 4D* would be RKC. 4NT* would be LT*(Last train style)

I do not play the threads posted methods, but I would open 3C with any partner. The hand is flawed, but the odds are two to one(I only have one partner and two 'enemy' players) that my bid might produce good results.

If the hands were reversed so that the 2NT opening was bid first. Using my methods, I could bid 4NT as a passable club slam try with 6322 or 7222 shape.

With better a better hand, I could also bid 2NT-4S* showing a 'stronger' club slam try than a 4NT* bid.

My 2NT-3S* MSS auctions 'shows' both minors.

With diamonds, I bid 2NT-4C* as a D transfer.

I also use a lot of Last Train* type(bid the suit directly under the final contract 5C* if Ds are trump and 4NT* if Cs are trump) bids to show 'very' strong hands rather than just 'showing' a long minor suit.

Partner also may use LT after I show my long minor.

Asking for Aces 'does' not show whether partner has a club 'fit', a source of tricks or a control rich hand.

I open 2NT with 21-22HCP. So if opener has a balanced 20HCP hand, the auction would go
1C-1NT*=Cs and we would have lots of room to explore for our best game/slam 'with' the strong hand as declarer.

Regards,
Robert

[luis]

In second position I agree with the initial pass.
Now I hate the methods I'm forced to play so I would try to make a slam try but I don't think you can do it in your system. What is 3♣ and then 4♣ to any response? Hope it is natural. Anyway I want to make a slam try.

Luis

[Robert]

Hello luis

My methods use 2NT-3C-3 any-4C* as a 'double transfer' shape showing bid.

I need to have a 4 card major to use 2NT-3C-any because I now 'show' 4M by bidding the other major. After showing my major suit, I can bid use the 4 level to show various minor suits 'if' we do not have a 4-4 M fit.

If you have doubts, post some minor hands and I will attempt to bid them.

I do open 1C with 18-20, 2NT=21-22 and 1C-1D-2NT=23-24 so you can pick any of these ranges for my opening bid.

Regards,
Robert

[mikeh]

No doubt any good partnership has methods beyond those posted, but (as is often the case) posting answers based on your pet methods is not responsive to the question. We do NOT have specialized methods available. We are being asked whether, in the context of our limited tools, we consider this hand to be worth a slam move and, if so, what?

Having said that, I am with Luis in asking whether our limited methods include 3♣ followd by 4♣. If they do, then I opt for that approach. I will not use MSS since that will garner a 4♦ bid far too frequently. I will not use gerber, because the answers do not really help me. So if I cannot bid 3♣ then 4♣ to show a slam try in ♣, with or without a side major, then I bid 3N, happy that it is matchpoints.

I would have opened 3♣ in second seat (but this is a poor hand in context, so it is close and I would pass at unfavourable), so I (or my partner) would have had a different problem.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would have opened 3C, but it is not a opening
to be proud of.
If you make a slam try, be sure, that you can stop in
4NT or 5NT, if not bid 3NT.

Slam is only good if you find a fit with partner,
if you are unsure, that you find the fit, be content
with 3NT.

You may not win the match in this board, but you
may loose it

Marlowe

[FrancesHinden]

I agree with the pass in 2nd seat. I hate 3C, would prefer 1C.

Now I make a slam try in clubs. If I am confident partner would understand 3C followed by 4C as a natural slam try, I would do that. However there's a risk we'd bid 3C - 3H (say) - 4C and he alerts it as a cue bid.

This hand will usually be worth 12 tricks opposite 20-21 balanced, the risk is that we have 2 losers. Playing matchpoints, and not being confident about 3C-4C, I would just respond 6NT and let them find the opening lead. If we aren't doubled, we probably aren't off two aces on lead!

Any system discussion I had that lasted more than a couple of minutes would have included the conversation "Gerber?" "No, just play 4C as natural and forcing" and I'd have responded 4C (absent the more sophisticated methods I have in my regular partnerships).

[han]

Stubborn ZAR openers would open 1C I guess (27?), but I agree with Ben that the two J-doubletons and the empty suit make this unappealing (especially in 2nd seat). However, I suspect that the auction would have gone more smoothly after a 1C opening.

3C followeded by 4C seems best.

[whereagles]

Opening or not: maybe, maybe not. Depends on the vibes at table.

Slam or not: having passed, now I'll just take a flier and bid 6♣. Let them guess the rest.

[Al_U_Card]

FrancesHinden, on Dec 5 2005, 12:20 PM, said:

I agree with the pass in 2nd seat. I hate 3C, would prefer 1C.

However there's a risk we'd bid 3C - 3H (say) - 4C and he alerts it as a cue bid.

This hand will usually be worth 12 tricks opposite 20-21 balanced, the risk is that we have 2 losers. Playing matchpoints, and not being confident about 3C-4C, I would just respond 6NT and let them find the opening lead.  If we aren't doubled, we probably aren't off two aces on lead!

Thanks all. As Frances indicated, 3C then 4C would be a Q-bid after finding a 4-4 major fit. 3S-3N-4C is a slam try asking for keycards for C apparently I was told in the post-mortem.... )

My question about the brakes is how to stop in 4NT in this case or even why not bid the other minor if interested in slam and pard can bid 4NT with no interest and q-bid controls or some other method....

Scoring: MP

So, using the 3S 3N
4C method, how to continue.....

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[han]

Opener is going to be very excited when she hears partner is interested in a club slam. No way that you stopping below slam.

[mikeh]

I agree with Hannie: if responder shows interest in a ♣ slam, opener cannot stop short of 6♣. In fact, I believe that to be the correct bid: showing no concern over keycards or suit quality sends a message, and there is no way for opener to find out whether 7 is feasible... which it rates not to be anyway opposite a passed hand.

BTW, I thought that in the auction 2N 3♣ 3M, responder showed slam interest and a 4=4 fit (or better) by making the cheapest bid in the other major: thus 3♠/3♥ and 4♥/3♠ was now a fairly standard treatment.

[Robert]

Hello everyone

If 2NT-3S-4C shows a club one suiter, how do you show a minor two suiter using these posted methods?

Regards,
Robert

[mikeh]

The initial post specified MSS: ie 3♠ shows both minors

[han]

Robert, you could play that 3S-3NT-4M shows shortness and both minors.

[Winstonm]

Agree with pass. Would only make a slam try if methods included a "mild" slam try that could stop in 4N.

Winston

[Fluffy]

I'm not sure of what MSS means, but I'll show club 1 suiter however I Can.

I would open 3♣ without hesitation also, now reading all your comments my rethink of it next tiem I'm dealt something similar

[Al_U_Card]

Fluffy, on Dec 6 2005, 11:54 AM, said:

I'm not sure of what MSS means, but I'll show club 1 suiter however I Can.

I would open 3♣ without hesitation also, now reading all your comments my rethink of it next tiem I'm dealt something similar

Minor suit stayman. I gather (like most conventions) it has multiple variants. I was only aware of the typical 4 card minor(s) and fear of NT play or raising to suggest slam.
As pointed out by JL and others, the "relay" thru 3NT (opener has both majors stopped?) allows for stopping there or showing other kinds of slam try hands including single suiters......