[Al_U_Card]

On the occasions when I have been "awakened" by the alert of my (I forgot that we were playing......) bid, I am occasionally hard pressed to know the "right" course of action to be fair to the opps. Is it better to try and get to what you think the par contract will be or should you just stop bidding and see what happens?

[awm]

I think the ethical thing to do is to act as if you didn't hear partner's alert, and continue as if your bid meant what you originally thought. For example:

I open 2♦ with a weak two bid, and partner alerts. This alert reminds me that we play flannery. Partner now bids 2♥. I should now bid as though I had opened a weak 2♦ and partner had bid a forcing 2♥ (assuming we play new suits forcing over weak twos).

Neither "try to get to the par spot" (which often entails taking advantage of partner's alert) nor "just stop bidding" is really the right course of action.

[kfgauss]

Al_U_Card, on Sep 14 2005, 08:02 PM, said:

On the occasions when I have been "awakened" by the alert of my (I forgot that we were playing......) bid, I am occasionally  hard pressed to know the "right" course of action to be fair to the opps.  Is it better to try and get to what you think the par contract will be or should you just stop bidding and see what happens?

The correct/ethical thing to do is to assume that your partner is bidding in response to what you thought your bid meant. You must not use the UI (unauthorized information) that your partner believes your bid means something other than what you meant it to mean, and in fact if you have several logical alternatives for subsequent actions, you may not choose one that is suggested over another by this UI.

(This is all in ACBL-land; I don't know about other jurisdictions, but suspect it's largely the same.)

For example, say you have one of the following 3 hands:
a ) 4 J107 A98 AQJ652
b ) AJ104 7 98 AQJ652
c ) J104 K7 98 AQJ652

The bidding is:
1NT* 2C** P 2S
P ?

* = 12-14
** = you meant it as natural, your partner alerted it (and you now remember you play it as Landy, showing the majors)

Partner's 2S bid in response to Landy merely means he prefers to play 2S over 2H. If in response to a natural 2C bid, 2S shows a spade suit.

a ) You have two logical alternatives: 3C and Pass. 3C is clearly suggested by the UI, so you must pass. If you have agreements that e.g. 2D by you would be natural and 1NT 2D P 2S would be forcing, then Pass is presumably no longer a logical alternative and you can bid 3C (though you should again consider whether there are other logical alternatives, such as 2NT, and whether they are suggested by the UI). You should be warned, however, that unless you have documented notes to this effect (or e.g. notes stating that advances to overcalls are always forcing) the director and any appeals committee should find your statement that this is how you play to be "self serving." (Unless the agreement that 2S is forcing here is totally standard.)

b ) Opposite a natural 2S bid, you have an easy 4S raise. Even if you think 3S is a logical alternative, being more conservative in your raise is clearly suggested by the UI and thus (since 4S is also a logical alternative) you must bid 4S.

c ) This hand should probably raise to 3S.

Hope this helps!

Andy

[edited to get rid of the "b )" = thing]

[Al_U_Card]

The hand in question was Precision Michaels where RHO bid 1H and I overcalled 3C (W vs R) with xx xx xx AJTxxxx and pard took it to mean S and D 5-5. Once he alerted and then bid 3D I should consider that I did indeed show long C and accept his 3D bid to play?

[pigpenz]

yes that used to be part of active ethics. You are supposed to bid in response to partner as if you didnt know you had screwed up.

I think in a different forum on this subject i had posted: you forgot you are playing flannery and open weak two in diamonds:

2♦ pass 2♥ pass
you

are you allowed to correct to 3♦ or forced to ethically raise to 3♥ if you play new suit as forcing opp a weak two bid. Not alot of people would bid 3♥ unless the director was there with a gun pointed at their head.(with 3♥'s)

[kfgauss]

Al_U_Card, on Sep 14 2005, 08:53 PM, said:

The hand in question was Precision Michaels where RHO bid 1H and I overcalled 3C (W vs R) with xx xx xx AJTxxxx and pard took it to mean S and D 5-5.  Once he alerted and then bid 3D I should consider that I did indeed show long C and accept his 3D bid to play?

This convention (Ghestem is another name I think) has a long history of such problems. It's generally advised that one does not play it for this reason . That said, if you play 3♦ opposite a 3♣ preempt (if you can never preempt 3♣, consider 3♥ over 3♦ or some such) as NF (ie just an attempt to improve the contract) then you should pass. If, more likely, you play it as forcing, you should bid something -- 4♣ probably, though you should consider whether 3NT and 4♦ are logical alternatives. Note that if you bid 4♣, partner, who as yet has no UI, is allowed to decide that you misbid and pass -- unless you "looked surprised" or some such and gave it away (though perhaps if you forget this convention often and partner knows it this won't be allowed as it suggests a hidden partnership understanding, sort of like psychic controls, but this point is a bit subtle and I'm not so sure). Probably for the sake of your partnership, though, partner should decide that 4♣ is showing a fragment or shortness (whichever is your style) in a big 5-5 hand, else you'll be worried that partner will pass when you have this hand!

pigpenz, on Sep 14 2005, 09:01 PM, said:

yes that used to be part of active ethics. You are supposed to bid in response to partner as if you didnt know you had screwed up.

I think in a different forum on this subject i had posted: you forgot you are playing flannery and open weak two in diamonds:

2♦ pass 2♥ pass
you

are you allowed to correct to 3♦ or forced to ethically raise to 3♥ if you play new suit as forcing opp a weak two bid. Not alot of people would bid 3♥ unless the director was there with a gun pointed at their head.(with 3♥'s)

With 3 hearts, you're certainly supposed to raise -- perhaps to 3♥, but if you have a nice hand with 3 hearts and a singleton, a splinter (to 3♠ or 4♣) is probably a logical alternative (assuming you play splinters -- if not, then 3♥ is fine). This (the splinter) might be taking it a bit too far practically speaking, but it's probably the correct thing to do strictly speaking.

[Edit: I assumed you meant that partner's alert woke you up. If nothing strange has gone on to remind you that you play Flannery -- for example if you were playing online and opps talked privately to partner -- then you're well within your rights to realize it if it's your own realization. Then you may bid as you wish, but you should try not to give UI to partner through long hesitations or some such to suggest that you bid poorly and have a problem now. Of course, 2♦-2♥-3♦ is an impossible Flannery auction, so partner shouldn't have any problems.]

Andy