BBO Discussion Forums: 3rd elementary question - BBO Discussion Forums

still in the precision world, partner opens 1H...Please tell me your meanings of :
1H -2H vs.
1H-1NT -2x -2H vs
1H-3H vs
1H -1NT-2x -3H

for the first two, I'm using both as 6-bad 10 but difference is the immediate raise has a shortness and some trumping value, whereas the slow raise has no void or singleton

for the last two, HCPs are a good 10 to, say, 13 but is the best distinction, the number of trump support?

Thanks for bearing with me. Comments are appreciated.

I'd use the same bids as responder that I use playing a 5-card Major approach, but in this case I'd only match up on your first bid which for me has 9.5/9mlt any distribution and whatever hcp. 1♥-3♥ is preemptive with 4/5+ depending on vulnerability

I start with a modified loser count factor in hcp and then revalue accordingly to produce a fairly precise picture of bidding strength for which I have allocated bids. I prefer to show support immediately unless flat with a preference to play 1N

For me:

1M-2M is 5-9 with three-card support. We believe in supporting with support because it can help shut out the opponents or find a good sacrifice. Despite the light values, we do sometimes have game here because we don't upgrade 6-4 13 counts (for example) into 1♣.

1♠-1NT-2x-2♠ is around 8-11 with two-card support. With less values and doubleton we would pass 1♠; with three-card support we raise directly. Opener is permitted to bid on with a real maximum. Over 1♥, we use 1♠ as the "forcing notrump" bid but otherwise it's the same range.

1M-3M is preemptive (less than around 8 points) and not really looking for game although opener can bid it anyway (usually with a six-card suit).

1♠-1NT-2x-3♠ doesn't really exist, because we believe in raising directly with support and not bidding 1NT (also, our 1NT is only semi-forcing and opener will pass with a balanced hand).

We use 1♠-2♥ and 1♥-2♦ to show limit raises of opener's suit. Before adopting this style, we used 1♥-2♠ and 1♠-2NT as an "invitational or better with fit" call. Again, we really don't like bidding 1NT with a fit.

This touches on a more complicated topic, applying in near equal amounts to both standard and Precision. One of the questions I always (always always) ask pickup partners is their raise structure of 1M. There are many different ways to go about this. I'll spell out some common ones in more detail, though many different options exist:

• 'Standard 2/1': 2M is 6-9, 1NT-then-3M is 10-11, 3M and 4M are preemptive, GF starts with J2NT or 2/1, possibly add in Bergen Raises if you want to resolve 3-card versus 4-card raises more easily.
  
• 'Standard 2/1 with constructive raises': 2M is 8-11, 1NT-then-2M is 5-7 or some hands with 2-card support, rest the same as above.
  
• Dutch 2/1: 2M is 6-9, 2NT is 9-14 ish, 3M and 4M are preemptive, SI starts with 2/1.
  
• Swedish/Scandinavian(?) transfers: 2M is 6-9, 2M-1 is 10+ and 3-card support, 2NT is J2NT ("Stenberg" in Swedish), 2/1 typically denies a fit.
  
• Classical: 2M is 6-9, 3M is 10-11, 12+ bids 2/1 or J2NT.
  
• Tarzan Precision/Relay: 2M is 0-8, 3M is 0-8, 2♦ is 9-11 3(+), 1M-4M contains most GF-no-SI hands as well as some weak hands, SI starts with a relay bid (1♠ over 1♥, 1NT over 1♠) or J2NT.

Other options exist, including e.g. the IMPrecision approach, more artificial jump raises, or other. Also in a limited opening context the auction 1M-4M in particular can contain most hands worth a game force (but no slam interest and no decision problems if the opponents overcall at the 5-level) as well as tactically absorb some of the maximum invitational hands, in addition to weak ones. This lowers the strain on the other bids, especially in competition.

In addition to the above I think that in a limited opening context it makes a lot of sense to widen the range on the non-invitational raises. When I played Precision I played the Dutch set but 1M-2M was 0-9 ish and 1M-3M was also 0-9 ish, simply because we could. Opener was allowed to bid on with extra shape, i.e. a sixth card in the major, a 5-5, or a hand that believed it could make game opposite a good fraction of the 0-9 range, but would normally pass. Personally I strongly believe in 'support with support', especially with a hand too weak to control the auction and force to game. Combining these preferences ruled out the 'Standard 2/1' options for me, despite them being most popular.

I think any of these standard approaches can easily be adapted to a Precision context. I would recommend reconsidering especially the ranges of your competitive/destructive raises, and also your immediate jumps to game. And if none of these suit your fancy, many many alternatives exist.

DavidKok, on 2024-June-13, 09:53, said:

I don't quite recognise this. 1M-2M is already "constructive" in standard 2/1, and in terms of total points, the ladder with 3(4)c support is something like

1M-1N; 2x-2M: 5-7 [2M here is a) normal preference b) false preference c) non-constructive raise (sense 1)]
1M-2M: 8-10 [constructive raise (sense 1)]
1M-1N; 2x-3M: 11-12 [it's common to take this hand type out of 1N if 1N is SF or NF]

In Norway, where I think I've only met one 2/1 pair play 1M-1N as F1, it's more common to do as Brogeland did earlier and play something like

1M-[2M-1]: 5-8 [[2M-1] here c) NAT GF d) non-con constructive raise (sense 2)
1M-2M: 9-12 [constructive raise (sense 2)],

where the 2M-1 "raise" is similar to Ambra's.

FWIW, Davidkok's "Dutch 2/1" scheme is bog standard in Italy and Turkey too, not sure about other countries.

awm, on 2024-June-13, 09:34, said:

If it doesn't exist, let's give it a meaning: ♠Hx and excelent support for partner's minor.

helene_t, on 2024-June-14, 00:28, said:

Yeah it wouldn't surprise me if something like this is in our notes. But in practice this never comes up, and it's certainly not a 3-card raise of any variety.

shugart24, on 2024-June-13, 08:36, said:

Two-over-one wasn't GF in the original Precision, but I think it used 1N forcing. So...

1M-1N, 2m-3M was a limit raise with 3 trump
1M-1N, 2m-2M was usually 2-cd support shy of invitational strength
1M-2M was a fit with roughly 6-9 support points
1M-2N was invitational, fairly balanced and usually 2-cd support
1M-3O was a strong jump shift
1M-3M was a limit raise with 4-cd support

This isn't a recommendation and I don't have Wei's book in front of me.